tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post1483083331861009317..comments2023-10-28T12:01:47.929+00:00Comments on Edward Lucas: Launch piece from The TimesEdward Lucashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11369936559712607693noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-91573200831917029902008-02-27T19:36:00.000+00:002008-02-27T19:36:00.000+00:00I won´t disagree, however Ansip and Co are simply,...<I>I won´t disagree, however Ansip and Co are simply, very stupid and ignorant, and they still have several years of power to go.</I><BR/><BR/>They've made their bed. Let them sleep in it. <BR/><BR/><I>That however bothers me very little, I fortunately no longer live in Estonia.</I> <BR/><BR/>Like any place else doesn't have its own problems. Where do they not have riots? Paris, Copenhagen, Berlin? Everywhere in Europe it's the same. Young people take out their frustration by burning cars.<BR/><BR/><I>There are a lot of difficulties ahead, especially if the Government keeps on refusing to aknowledge the fact that, there are serious economic problems.</I><BR/><BR/>Every economist will tell you that, and I am sure those economic problems will help give birth to the next government. But that's the beauty of democracy -- the system does work, even if some people get screwed along the way.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-72077795057337264242008-02-26T10:26:00.000+00:002008-02-26T10:26:00.000+00:00I won´t disagree, however Ansip and Co are simply,...I won´t disagree, however Ansip and Co are simply, very stupid and ignorant, and they still have several years of power to go. That however bothers me very little, I fortunately no longer live in Estonia. <BR/><BR/>Ansip´s position is indeed very worrying, I wouln´t want to be in his shoes, however he brought everything upon himslef, he is a victim of his own actions. I don´t sympathise the man, however as long as he has a grip on the Media, he will remain in a relatively good position. Because the newspapers do brainwash the nation with pure bullshit, combination of bias and distraction from actual problems.<BR/>There are a lot of difficulties ahead, especially if the Government keeps on refusing to aknowledge the fact that, there are serious economic problems.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-3789817142567863252008-02-20T13:27:00.000+00:002008-02-20T13:27:00.000+00:00The reason I don't worry that much about Ansip & C...The reason I don't worry that much about Ansip & Co., is because I have faith in the back-biting nature of the Estonian people to sort the matter out over time. <BR/><BR/>That being said, I don't envy the position Ansip was in. He had to win an election, he had fiery Estonian nationalists pledging to blow Aljosha to smithereens, he had the old farts from Intermovement parading around in arm bands, adolescent Putinjugend raging against 'fascism', and a Russian government that kept daring him not to do it, even while the resurrect Soviet symbols at home.<BR/><BR/>I would not have liked to have been in his position.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-37088532339495206752008-02-20T09:09:00.000+00:002008-02-20T09:09:00.000+00:00I do happen to be a citizen of Estonia, so I do ca...I do happen to be a citizen of Estonia, so I do care a bit. <BR/><BR/>Controversial monuments, the inflatable phallus is controversial, a memorial monument is hardly controversial..<BR/><BR/>But let´s not discuss this, really tired of talking about the monuments by now.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I´m suprised our ranting about Estonia hasn´t yet been deleted as SPAM..lolAntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-62892664084368682652008-02-20T08:16:00.000+00:002008-02-20T08:16:00.000+00:00because someone suggested that estonia was not pla...<I>because someone suggested that estonia was not planning to move any monuments....well and this one was moved after some 600 Narvans asked for it to be moved...</I><BR/><BR/>Forgive me. I don't expect Estonia to remove any <I>controversial</I> monuments. The two big controversial monuments -- the Lihula soldier and the Bronze Soldier -- are now in less conspicuous places.<BR/><BR/>Why do Russians even care? You could built a giant, inflatable phallus in homage to Mick Jagger in Kazan, and I might notice it on the evening news, but I wouldn't care. That's your business.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-47160880312150914992008-02-20T08:11:00.000+00:002008-02-20T08:11:00.000+00:00Mate, the monument was in the memory of the short ...<I>Mate, the monument was in the memory of the short lived communist commune of Narva, during its occupation by the red army. Great work on the sarcasm there but get your facts right first.</I><BR/><BR/> ... and the commune was led by Jaan Anvelt and Viktor Kingissepp, both Estonians. I am so glad we are here on Edward Lucas' blog discussing obscure Estonian history.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-61262190215755906962008-02-19T21:43:00.000+00:002008-02-19T21:43:00.000+00:00Mate, the monument was in the memory of the short ...Mate, the monument was in the memory of the short lived communist commune of Narva, during its occupation by the red army. Great work on the sarcasm there but get your facts right first.My remark was appropriate, because someone suggested that estonia was not planning to move any monuments....well and this one was moved after some 600 Narvans asked for it to be moved...<BR/><BR/>Agree, in Russia they did move monuments, and that is something I don't support at all, however in Russia no party has built its election campagin on removing the memorial...if a recall the issue in Estonia was debated for several months before the electionAntonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-85206742776472003862008-02-19T15:23:00.000+00:002008-02-19T15:23:00.000+00:00Narva City Council voted to remove that piece of p...Narva City Council voted to remove that piece of proletarian art. The chairman is Mihhail Stalnuhhin. <BR/><BR/>And, oh look, the monument was to ethnic Estonian communists. It must be part of a huge ethnic division in society, I mean Estonians get weird looks in shops in Narva when they try to speak their native language.<BR/><BR/>I apologize for the sarcasm, but I hope you see how ridiculous the whole thing is. In Russia too they moved monuments last year -- to make way for shopping centers and highways.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-89602770510535450542008-02-18T14:17:00.000+00:002008-02-18T14:17:00.000+00:00The Estonians are at it again!!Another soviet memo...The Estonians are at it again!!<BR/>Another soviet memorial removed, in Narva this time. Thats gonna do good for the bileteral relations...Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-74636177440329942252008-02-13T09:25:00.000+00:002008-02-13T09:25:00.000+00:00Although Russia has partly bowed to international ...Although Russia has partly bowed to international pressure and released Aleksanyan to a hospital, it then ran true to form and refused to inform his family or lawyers of his location. They literally had to go from hospital to hospital to track him down. Now that they have, there has been no confirmation (after five days) that Aleksanyan is receiving the treatment he so desperately needs. All of this is in direct contravention of the European Court of Human Rights but Russia appears not to care.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14778270939227021266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-64190221197420859562008-02-12T15:25:00.000+00:002008-02-12T15:25:00.000+00:00Ansip and Co. are still there, while the transit i...Ansip and Co. are still there, while the transit isn´t.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-48122297892782930862008-02-12T15:17:00.000+00:002008-02-12T15:17:00.000+00:00Personaly, I would like the Estonia-Russian relati...<I>Personaly, I would like the Estonia-Russian relationship to move forward, however that will not happen until the two move those historical arguments aside.</I><BR/><BR/>Something tells me that Estonia won't be moving any other monuments anytime soon. And, oh look, <A HREF="http://www.postimees.ee/110208/esileht/siseuudised/311238.php" REL="nofollow">a new Russian-language college</A> has just been established in Tallinn.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-35926209490892053142008-02-12T13:01:00.000+00:002008-02-12T13:01:00.000+00:00Until that changes, we have little chance of resis...Until that changes, we have little chance of resisting the Kremlin - and even less of persuading ordinary Russians that their corrupt, cynical, brutal and incompetent rulers are harbingers of disaster, not triumph<BR/>--------------------<BR/><BR/>Here we go again, someone, who hardly knows Russia, tells the ordinary Russian how to live.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-70516973437322355442008-02-12T12:02:00.000+00:002008-02-12T12:02:00.000+00:00This would be positive for bilateral relations. Th...This would be positive for bilateral relations. The more Russian officials ignore, deny, or shrug it off, the longer Estonian right-wing forces stay in power. They benefit from your government's lack of empathy.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Agree. That would really do good for their bileteral relations. However on the other hand, I don´t understand how more of a recognition does Estonia need, as I said earlier that the presidential administrations of Russian Federation have recognised the events, publicly, formaly.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Personaly, I would like the Estonia-Russian relationship to move forward, however that will not happen until the two move those historical arguments aside.<BR/>And Estonia asking for that recognition every half a year doesn´t help much.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-74725329100805450362008-02-12T11:36:00.000+00:002008-02-12T11:36:00.000+00:00But speaking frankly, Nazi-hunting is not without ...<I>But speaking frankly, Nazi-hunting is not without the use of bluff tactics. You have to come out firing with both barrels (for example, accusing Estonia of complete failure and F at prosecuting criminals).</I><BR/><BR/>What am I supposed to say here? The Wiesenthal Center accused one individual of taking part in crimes against humanity during the German occupation. <BR/><BR/>The Estonian State Prosecutors Office opened an investigation and could not corroborate the Wiesenthal Center's accusations. <BR/><BR/>I personally cannot find any documentation on the Internet that describes the charges in detail. <BR/><BR/>All I have are press releases from the Wiesenthal Center. So I have nothing more to say, because I am forced to plead ignorance.<BR/><BR/>I am not a "Nazi hunter" nor a "NKVD hunter". I am just engaged in a dialog about collective guilt. Someone mentioned Russophobia -- I tried to explain that there are reasons why certain countries retain a fear of Russia. That's all.<BR/><BR/><I>I´m Russian and I don´t expect an appology either from the German goverment, nor from Mr.Putin, because these people have nothing to do with those events.</I><BR/><BR/>Not an apology: a recognition. A recognition that event X happened. So whatever year your foreign minister comes to Tallinn, if he ever does, he can bring some wreaths. He can bring the presidential regalia as well. There are a lot of graves to visit. <BR/><BR/>This would be positive for bilateral relations. The more Russian officials ignore, deny, or shrug it off, the longer Estonian right-wing forces stay in power. They benefit from your government's lack of empathy.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-23353579584727858302008-02-12T09:37:00.000+00:002008-02-12T09:37:00.000+00:00´´These are formerly multi-national empires that h...´´These are formerly multi-national empires that have consolidated into 'nation states' (though still quite diverse).´´<BR/><BR/>Doesn´t mean that their interest will not collide in the future.<BR/><BR/>-------------<BR/><BR/>´´It would be comforting if their leadership recognized those crimes.´´<BR/><BR/>As far as I am aware, the first dennounciation of the Purges took place during the Kruschev Era 1954, and since then nearly every Soviet and Russian administration has done so. Activities of the NKVD during the 40´s have been recognised by Yeltsin and Putin as immoral.<BR/><BR/>Or do you expect the Russian government to appologise every year??<BR/><BR/>23 of my distant relatives died during WWII, most of them were killed by the Germans, a number of them were sent to the Gulag having survived the War. Several of my relatives were killed by the NKVD. I´m Russian and I don´t expect an appology either from the German goverment, nor from Mr.Putin, because these people have nothing to do with those events. They have no moral or legal obligations, and yet both Governments have recognized the events as crime. The only man behind this, is Stalin and he has been dead for 55 years.<BR/><BR/>Baltic Russophobia. You know what the other side of Baltic Russophobia is??<BR/><BR/>Being held accountable for things you have nothing to do with. Because a lot of Estonians have been treating Russians like shit.<BR/>They hate us in that country, with a passion. They´ll treat you bad in a shop, they will occasionally make fun of you in the streets and when you call for an ambulance, it will come 30 minutes late, just because you have a slight Russian accent. Well, and on the faithful night of april 23rd, you´d get the shit kicked out of you, and get locked up in a terminal, just for walking by, or speaking Russian too loud. You turn the TV on and occasionally you´ll hear that the Russians are responsible for the occasional problem in this country.<BR/><BR/>And you get all of this, because 60 years ago, Stalin ordered to occupy the Baltics. That is the other side of Russophobia in the region.<BR/><BR/>It is not whataboutism, it is reality, something that a number of you haven´t got a clue about, or simply don´t mention.<BR/><BR/>Well, and if you call this whataboutism, you simply have nothing else to say.Antonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14022964681232503802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-82410595727811505682008-02-12T09:36:00.000+00:002008-02-12T09:36:00.000+00:00Do you really think that major Nazi collaborators ...<I>Do you really think that major Nazi collaborators would have managed to survive for 50 years undetected under a Soviet totalitarian government that put people in jail for owning farms?</I><BR/><BR/>This is the point at a reception where I mutter something and hastily excuse myself. Indeed it is a bit of a weak spot. <BR/><BR/>But speaking frankly, Nazi-hunting is not without the use of bluff tactics. You have to come out firing with both barrels (for example, accusing Estonia of complete failure and F at prosecuting criminals). <BR/><BR/>Back when we were investigating war criminals who had escaped to the West, we collaborated quite closely with the KGB in order to get witness testimony. <BR/><BR/>We often had to pressure Soviet officials -- who were more interested only in having certain members of the emigre community extradited back to the USSR -- to produce witness testimony, often under deadlines. <BR/><BR/>Not all of it was reliable evidence, some of it was probably fabricated, but in the end, along with help from such institutions as Wiesenthal, we did prosecute a number of real war criminals among the political emigres. I would not say that the Soviets were that interested in bringing Nazis to justice.John Menzieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17065568311956571575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-76706190328510361872008-02-12T08:36:00.000+00:002008-02-12T08:36:00.000+00:00It is senseless and stupid to go further in this d...<I>It is senseless and stupid to go further in this discussion as well as looking on current Russia through the prism of that sad events and identify us with Stalin's regime and system.</I><BR/><BR/>It is also 'senseless and stupid' for some countries to fear future German aggression. But, at some levels, they do, even in Britain where a football victory over Germany might earn the headline "blitzkrieg".<BR/><BR/>In Asian too they are paranoid about Japan. Why? You know very well why they have those fears.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-87270295679103030582008-02-12T01:21:00.000+00:002008-02-12T01:21:00.000+00:00"Sometimes I look at old photographs and wonder, w..."Sometimes I look at old photographs and wonder, what it is these people did to deserve to be arrested by foreign troops and sent to a GULAG camp to watch their friends and relatives worked until they died..."<BR/><BR/>And so do I, though people I am talking about were arrested by those who by law were supposed to protect them. So who is going to recognize what before whom - a beaten one before another beaten one, if you see my point? It is senseless and stupid to go further in this discussion as well as looking on current Russia through the prism of that sad events and identify us with Stalin's regime and system.TErrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16072517971715024601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-8062789857367273532008-02-11T22:27:00.000+00:002008-02-11T22:27:00.000+00:00Hunting down like S.Wiez. only for serving in NKVD...<I>Hunting down like S.Wiez. only for serving in NKVD? Excuse me, they have substantial evidence, exact names and internationally approved legal basis. </I><BR/><BR/>They are being treated as crimes against humanity, which they are. Unfortunately, even if you put old men on trial it doesn't really provide any justice. So maybe the Wiesenthal Center comparison is a poor one.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes I look at old photographs and wonder, what it is these people did to deserve to be arrested by foreign troops and sent to a GULAG camp to watch their friends and relatives worked until they died. <BR/><BR/>This was the 1940s. They had cars and radios and airplanes and "civilization". But no notions of being civilized could protect them from that brutality. And there will be no justice for the crimes committed against them. <BR/><BR/>It does not enrich ones positive feelings about the future of the world.<BR/><BR/><I>Besides that your Estonia has an F-2 rating</I><BR/><BR/>Do you really think that major Nazi collaborators would have managed to survive for 50 years undetected under a Soviet totalitarian government that put people in jail for <B>owning farms</B>?<BR/><BR/>And here we are talking about the Nazis again. That's the Third Reich's gift to the world. An irreversible lobotomy.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-68488050451274284382008-02-11T21:01:00.000+00:002008-02-11T21:01:00.000+00:00You're right, there WERE no justice at THAT time. ...You're right, there WERE no justice at THAT time. But what you mean is that we are bad for not whipping ourselves, for not starting a witchhunt? That thus we do not recognize the crimes of Stalin? That's absurd! <BR/><BR/>What you say has neither legal, nor moral basis and technically impossible.<BR/><BR/>Hunting down like S.Wiez. only for serving in NKVD? Excuse me, they have substantial evidence, exact names and internationally approved legal basis. It's way different from Stalin and e.t.c.<BR/><BR/>Besides that your Estonia has an F-2 rating http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/s/content.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=253162&ct=3761331<BR/><BR/>"...wariness (irrational in fact)that is sometimes suffused with fear and can often include irrational elements" - thats paranoya.TErrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16072517971715024601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-40781815974633113812008-02-11T18:56:00.000+00:002008-02-11T18:56:00.000+00:00Yeah, the estonians can go ahead and keep mumbling...<I>Yeah, the estonians can go ahead and keep mumbling about how bad russians were to them, forgetting that the same NKVD executed millions of russians to. Whom do they mumble about - Putin, his father, or me and my grandpa?</I><BR/><BR/>I think a central issue is that there has not been any justice, nor will there be any justice for these crimes. There will be no compensation to families destroyed, there will be few trials (only in the Baltics perhaps) of those who perpetrated the crimes. And so there will never be any closure or answer.<BR/><BR/>It's not like there's a "Simon Wiesenthal Center" hunting down veterans of the NKVD and putting them on trial. The criminals in this case probably receive a pension somewhere. <BR/><BR/><I>We dodn't mumble about germans or french, we leave by the present, but not by the ghosts of 60 years old past.</I><BR/><BR/>Travel to the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, or Poland. You'll find similar cases of 'germanophobia.' When you are smaller, and your future survival depends on the sanity of larger neighbors given to <B>insanity</B>, you develop such instincts.<BR/><BR/>As <A HREF="http://lettonica.blogspot.com/" REL="nofollow">Peteris Cedrins</A> recently put it:<BR/><BR/><I>Baltic "Russophobia" might be persistent, but it is neither abnormal nor irrational -- it is, in short, not a phobia but a rational wariness that is sometimes suffused with fear and can often include irrational elements, as simply as a little girl left alone with known serial rapists might sometimes get the willies. <BR/><BR/>Being neighbors, we can't avoid Russia, and Lucas makes it quite clear in this book that our willies are misunderstood. We live next to a country that tortured us and does not recognize that fact.</I>Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-61519486898675123342008-02-11T18:08:00.000+00:002008-02-11T18:08:00.000+00:00What do you mean by recognize - appologize, admit ...What do you mean by recognize - appologize, admit the guilt or recognize the unhuman nature of crimes? The last thing we did many times. But no nation or group desereves some special recognition - russians suffered equally as others!TErrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16072517971715024601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-18941867292060716502008-02-11T18:03:00.000+00:002008-02-11T18:03:00.000+00:002 GiustinoMan, that sounds ridiculous - Alexander ...2 Giustino<BR/><BR/>Man, that sounds ridiculous - Alexander Nevsky and stuff... Though, may be that's the reason why we and germans do fine, for they finally learned a lesson - don't mess with Russia, be friends with us. It's better to trade with russians, fighting will always end the same way - our troops in enemy's capital.<BR/><BR/>How many storys (floors) does that building has? It should be like of 60 apartments, did they build that huge residential complexes in 1941? Yeah, the estonians can go ahead and keep mumbling about how bad russians were to them, forgetting that the same NKVD executed millions of russians to. Whom do they mumble about - Putin, his father, or me and my grandpa?<BR/>Russia now is the generation of completely different people, with different goals and mentality. You accept that or not, we dont really care, we do our own busyness. We dodn't mumble about germans or french, we leave by the present, but not by the ghosts of 60 years old past.TErrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16072517971715024601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-62656307471867420722008-02-11T17:49:00.000+00:002008-02-11T17:49:00.000+00:00By that you mean the government of Putin or the 14...<I>By that you mean the government of Putin or the 145 mln of ordinary Russians?</I><BR/><BR/>Russians do not bear collective guilt for the crimes of the NKVD. It would be comforting if their leadership recognized those crimes.<BR/><BR/><I>But don´t forget that GB, France and Germany have traditionaly been rival powers in Europe and the World, and look at the picture now, they´re living together pretty well.</I><BR/><BR/>These are formerly multi-national empires that have consolidated into 'nation states' (though still quite diverse). <BR/><BR/>Is that what Russia is becoming?Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.com