tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post7268032097503207812..comments2023-10-28T12:01:47.929+00:00Comments on Edward Lucas: Estonia twists in the windEdward Lucashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11369936559712607693noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-83880455832867215052007-05-03T20:55:00.000+00:002007-05-03T20:55:00.000+00:00You just can't believe that I don't hate you. :-)You just can't believe that I don't hate you. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-90897515655820982872007-05-03T20:54:00.000+00:002007-05-03T20:54:00.000+00:00Irina,I think you are under a very dangerous delus...Irina,<BR/><BR/>I think you are under a very dangerous delusion. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-64694309089952031162007-05-03T20:27:00.000+00:002007-05-03T20:27:00.000+00:00you are just so angry and reluctant that it is ver...you are just so angry and reluctant that it is very difficult to really communicate with you. Sorry, kristjan<BR/>I wanted to smooth things over at least here, in this blog.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389347495041346960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-47916453237884861582007-05-03T19:10:00.000+00:002007-05-03T19:10:00.000+00:00I don't read Russian newspapers here.kristjan, I h...<I>I don't read Russian newspapers here.<BR/>kristjan, I hope that everything will be resolved for the better.<BR/>I don't want to go back and forth...</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>OK. I'm sure they will for Estonia. I hope that Russia finds democracy as well. For a good example, they don't have to look far. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-58807082408871252302007-05-03T19:07:00.000+00:002007-05-03T19:07:00.000+00:00#3 - great comment about re-thinking citizenship t...<I>#3 - great comment about re-thinking citizenship tests. It is not a secret that Russian speaking population is being discriminated over there. If we talk about Estonia as a country, we need to consider all nationalities who live there.</I><BR/><BR/>The thing is Irina that most came illegally and Estonia decided long ago against amnesty for them. It was illegal because Soviet administration in Estonia was illegal, and therefore Soviet population transfer was illegal too.<BR/><BR/>Right now, only 9 percent of residents lack citizenship. That's less than 125,000 people. <BR/><BR/>My hope is that the government will look into why those people still, after 16 years, can't pass a basic language test (which are quite standard in Europe, see France, Germany, Finland etc.) and what is keeping them back from being full citizens.<BR/><BR/>But I am still not sure if that will solve anything. I keep hearing Russians talking of "fascists" -- are they crazy? The government might do something in poor taste, but it's legal and democratic, and if you don't like it, don't vote for them or carry a sign and protest.<BR/><BR/>Breaking windows and destroying shops are criminal activities. <BR/><BR/>Quite honestly, the Estonians show amazing restraint all the time. As a person with Italian blood, I just might have been out there during the riots beating some kids up because when you are a normal person in this country and you work and have kids, having teenagers chanting "CCCP Forever" destroy your neighborhood is enough to make your blood boil.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-46438756310790486752007-05-03T19:05:00.000+00:002007-05-03T19:05:00.000+00:00I don't read Russian newspapers here. kristjan, I ...I don't read Russian newspapers here. <BR/>kristjan, I hope that everything will be resolved for the better.<BR/>I don't want to go back and forth...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389347495041346960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-8704526333639023422007-05-03T19:00:00.000+00:002007-05-03T19:00:00.000+00:00Irina,It is the Russian state-controlled media.Irina,<BR/><BR/>It is the Russian state-controlled media.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-78476031221698548612007-05-03T18:58:00.000+00:002007-05-03T18:58:00.000+00:00Ed, couple of things. First of all, why the hell s...Ed, couple of things. <BR/><BR/>First of all, why the hell should Estonian Govt seek prior approval from politicians abroad!?? You are not implying we are small and pathetic on our own!? Besides, it's now very clear that the diplomatic support is there and all over the place.<BR/><BR/>Was it really for Ansip to win a few extra votes? Even if it was purely for political gain at home he didn't just get few but loads - support for him is going to go through the roof.<BR/><BR/>It clearly shows you're great pals with Mr Mart Laar. If Pro Patria's Laar were in the office he would have jumped at the opportunity to win some nationalistic votes. And no, I am not a Reform voter (but not a fan of Laar's either).<BR/><BR/>Please explain what has happened with our reputation then. Because we moved a war memorial (symbolic or not) to a new more beautiful location and are now facing Russian propaganda's onslaught our reputation internationally has somehow mysteriously deteriorated? Judging by what I'm hearing from people I know abroad and what I'm seeing in the foreign media it's the other way around - we have finally stood up.<BR/><BR/>Another perplexing part of your piece for me is where you mention Estonian media and the ruined harmony between people. Yes, Estonian media might have gotten carried away a bit but hell, journalists can get emotional sometimes as well and current hysteria is riding on a high emotion which will soon subdue. But to give them some credit, you lambast them for making the implication that all Russians are looters but then take your aim at the Russian elite for not condemning the riots either - hey, that may confuse Estonian journos, too!<BR/><BR/>As for the harmony between people - this I think has actually gotten better because for the very first time we have had such a serious face off and it always helps to know where we exactly are in terms of integration... In other words, lot of steam has gotten out and soon we are on speaking terms again.<BR/><BR/>The main misgiving there was, as someone already noted, that the statue wasn't removed right after the last Russian troops left Estonia in 1994. But that wasn't Ansip's bad. Could that have been Mr Laar by any chance?<BR/><BR/>To conclude, I was actually looking very much forward to Economist's take on this but it looks as if I'm going to be a bit disappointed now.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11528606176958006228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-20119411288025359242007-05-03T18:57:00.000+00:002007-05-03T18:57:00.000+00:00who manipulates me?who manipulates me?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389347495041346960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-26428682343610184532007-05-03T18:33:00.000+00:002007-05-03T18:33:00.000+00:00Irina,You can be sure that a basic knowledge of Es...Irina,<BR/><BR/>You can be sure that a basic knowledge of Estonian will continue to be a prerequisite to citizenship.<BR/><BR/>We do not discriminate. But we do protect ourselves from a neighbour who has raped us for three centuries.<BR/><BR/>And I still very much see the manipulation in your views. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-46798173273556457002007-05-03T18:30:00.000+00:002007-05-03T18:30:00.000+00:00giustino,great plan!#1 is the most important and s...giustino,<BR/>great plan!<BR/>#1 is the most important and sensitive now, I guess.<BR/><BR/>Everything else will take time.<BR/><BR/>#3 - great comment about re-thinking citizenship tests. It is not a secret that Russian speaking population is being discriminated over there. If we talk about Estonia as a country, we need to consider all nationalities who live there.<BR/><BR/>#5 - is my personal best one. We need some "third party" to help resolve the problem without taking somebody's side but really playing "third" party role. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Thank you!<BR/>IrinaUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389347495041346960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-74340723772037893292007-05-03T18:09:00.000+00:002007-05-03T18:09:00.000+00:00"Does somebody see any reasonable solution other t..."Does somebody see any reasonable solution other than blaming everybody around?"<BR/><BR/>Here's how it can end, Irina, and I am from New York and Italian-American just for the purposes of identifying myself.<BR/><BR/>1. Russia attends the May 8th dedication of the monument in the Estonian military cemetery. Both sides lay flowers together.<BR/><BR/>2. Russia signs the border treaty with Estonia. Russia has nothing to lose by signing it. Estonia has no land claims. Everyone knows this. <BR/><BR/>3. Estonia -- and the EU -- dump a crap load of money into integration in Estonia. I am talking about free Estonian language courses, greater incentives, et cetera. Maybe they should review the current citizenship tests. Launch New Deal-like construction projects to get inner-city Russian-speaking kids into the Estonian countryside where they can get decent jobs, do something, AND fix all the crappy roads.<BR/><BR/>4. Russia's state-run media finds another country to pick on constantly and critique. Maybe its own?<BR/><BR/>5. Estonia and Russia ignore each other for awhile and work mostly through the EU. Because besides this monument and the border treaty, they actually have little to talk about these days.<BR/><BR/>Let Russia worry about Iran and Chechnya. In the meantime, Estonia can continue to modernize its economy and become "another boring Nordic country."<BR/><BR/>The end.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-42767408415936401302007-05-03T17:58:00.000+00:002007-05-03T17:58:00.000+00:00Irina,As I see, Estonia no longer has a problem. E...Irina,<BR/><BR/>As I see, Estonia no longer has a problem. Esto-Russians have more-or-less realized what a vile manipulation it was that was done on them, and that the Estonians are not the children of Satan after all.<BR/><BR/>The question now is what happens to the Russian Federation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-78776474195429200792007-05-03T17:53:00.000+00:002007-05-03T17:53:00.000+00:00I've read all of our comments and I see a lot of f...I've read all of our comments and I see a lot of frustration here. It is definetely more painful topic that we could expect. <BR/><BR/>Does somebody see any reasonable solution other than blaming everybody around?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389347495041346960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-64352142596136112922007-05-03T17:04:00.000+00:002007-05-03T17:04:00.000+00:00Edward,It's an open secret that the Kremlin suppor...Edward,<BR/><BR/>It's an open secret that the Kremlin supports Edgar Savisaar in Estonia. Rather than being expansionists, these day Moscow prefers a loyal stooge and believes that Edgar is their man.<BR/><BR/>I *could* see how muscular Russian pressure followed by calls for Ansip's resignation *could* lead to Ansip's resignation, which would mean one thing: Prime Minister Savisaar.<BR/><BR/>BUT, the behavior of the marauders, who I have taken to calling the Sprite-Hugo Boss Liberation Army, and Russia's nasty behavior turned everyone to support Ansip. <BR/><BR/>I agree that he is largely behind this. I also don't like seeing 17 year olds yelling "CCCP Forever" in the streets of Tallinn. However, this government has held up in spite of all the pressure. Which is pretty good if you ask me.Giustinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756707910693785516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-71240801201815377662007-05-03T16:44:00.000+00:002007-05-03T16:44:00.000+00:00Kristjan,I know that and it is ok. What is done is...Kristjan,<BR/>I know that and it is ok. What is done is done. <BR/>My note was quite theoretical just to show that there is always possibility for different solutions.Aleksejs Nipershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04339385248283302884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-81055609350525452382007-05-03T16:23:00.001+00:002007-05-03T16:23:00.001+00:00Aleksei,Aljosha has already been moved to a war ce...Aleksei,<BR/><BR/>Aljosha has already been moved to a war cemetery, where he stands proudly and beautifully.<BR/><BR/>Please see this blog entry for a photo, if you're interested.<BR/><BR/>http://palun.blogspot.com/2007/04/peaceful-sight.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-9695096695735230212007-05-03T16:23:00.000+00:002007-05-03T16:23:00.000+00:00Thanks for all the comments. I am sorry if this bl...Thanks for all the comments. I am sorry if this blog is cumbersome to use. I am grateful for all suggestions about how to organise it better.<BR/><BR/>The idea that this was a putsch in Tallinn is a self-indulgent fantasy. I have witnessed putsches. They involve tanks, people seizing radio stations. This was a provocation, not a putsch. If you exaggerate, you will have no words left when it gets more serious.<BR/><BR/>Regards<BR/>EdwardEdward Lucashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11369936559712607693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-48439151289355747132007-05-03T16:01:00.000+00:002007-05-03T16:01:00.000+00:00I must agree that situation on the streets of Tall...I must agree that situation on the streets of Tallinn and with EE embassy was not normal. <BR/><BR/>Surely, EE has their own right to do what they want. So the question is only about what they want – there is always possibility for different actions. For example to put near “Aljosha” another monument as a symbol of occupation – yes, fascism is bad, but we have to remember about Stalin crimes as well. <BR/><BR/>I like the way of Rīga, which decided that about monuments must decide not politicians, but professionals in history and art. So that shifted this issue from political agenda a little bit.Aleksejs Nipershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04339385248283302884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-66300272550631875982007-05-03T15:22:00.000+00:002007-05-03T15:22:00.000+00:00I would add to the previous that I think we should...I would add to the previous that I think we should all understand by now that appeasing evil regimes is not a good course of action.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-54876039198740620072007-05-03T15:13:00.000+00:002007-05-03T15:13:00.000+00:00@ Kristjan - it was just test of the blog. :-/@ Kristjan - it was just test of the blog. :-/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03884925654036172879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-81689425631226361912007-05-03T15:12:00.000+00:002007-05-03T15:12:00.000+00:001. This blog has very inconvenient login system. M...1. This blog has very inconvenient login system. Maybe you consider switching to something more user-friendly?<BR/><BR/>2. About Estonia. I understand your comment was very quick and not well thought of. <BR/><BR/>Estonia never got anything by bowing to Russia. In contrast, it got independence, NATO and EU membership by directly opposing Russia. 17 years of experience tells that it was the good conduct.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, I don't know any case when East European nation was helped by glossing or overlooking part of it's sad history. Every case, like untreated wound left to infection, problems exploded later. So my only concern is why Estonians didn't sort their monuments earlier.<BR/><BR/>I would also calm, because Russia after threatening moves always accepted the inevitable. They gulped Estonian entry to EU and NATO, why go mad about a monument?<BR/><BR/>The case of Estonian monument tells more about Russia society. Russia again dangerously glorifies own imperial conduct. <BR/><BR/>Another blog pointed cleverly (and sadly) that Russia didn't react so strongly to e.g. Estonians restricting citizenship to non-Estonian speakers. That should awaken any Russian patriot -Putin's Russian empire didn't care particularly about it's people, more about strengh of the country.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03884925654036172879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-83824274099873482932007-05-03T14:55:00.000+00:002007-05-03T14:55:00.000+00:00If you're asking what I think you're asking, the a...If you're asking what I think you're asking, the answer is that what happened in Tallinn was a attempted coup d'etat organized by the Russian Federation. It failed, and now we are mopping up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-71678285237054755462007-05-03T14:50:00.000+00:002007-05-03T14:50:00.000+00:00If you pose a question, I can answer it.If you pose a question, I can answer it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-24528000.post-6434850453942170972007-05-03T14:47:00.000+00:002007-05-03T14:47:00.000+00:00??????Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03884925654036172879noreply@blogger.com