Thursday, August 02, 2007

Arctic monkeys

Europe.view

Stirring the pot

Aug 2nd 2007
From Economist.com


Geology not ethnography is the problem


Get article background

“ETHNOGRAPHICALLY, it’s ours.” This was one of the most dismal phrases of the early 1990s, as countries freed by the cold war’s end explored their buried history and geography. Sometimes it made tragic if impractical sense. Nationalistic Finns (previously thought to be an extinct species) explained the legal case for recovering Karelia from Russia. Hungarians gloomily analysed the borders drawn by the Treaty of Trianon. Poles insisted that at least half of Belarus was really theirs, while Belarusians laid confident claim to all the lands of the ancient Grand Duchy, stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

Estonians and Latvians mourned slivers of lost territories (while not actually wanting them back: they are now mostly Russian-populated). Lithuanians hurriedly changed the subject: it was the Soviet occupation that returned their capital, Vilnius, from Poland and their seaport, Klaipeda, from Germany. Ukrainians explained that Kievan Rus had nothing to do with Russia, while Russians asked, reasonably, how Nash Krim (our Crimea) had ended up in Ukraine thanks to a Kremlin pen-stroke three decades previously. The Crimean Tatars pointed out (with even greater justice) that the balmy peninsular was theirs long before it was Russia’s.

For all the sentiment and heartbreak, the arguments were dangerous, even lethal, as Yugoslavia’s tragic disintegration proved. Some never stopped their poisonous bubbling. Is Kosovo “ethnographically” Albanian because of its recent past (recent in this context meaning a century’s worth of history), or Serbian because of its role in the Middle Ages?

But the great unsung triumphs of the 1990s were the conflicts that did not happen; these dwarfed the few that did. The desire to look respectable to outsiders trumped the desire to swagger in front of voters. Hungary and Romania buried the hatchet. The Czechs and Slovaks never quarrelled seriously about the divided villages on their (previously unimportant) border. Lithuanians and Poles became best friends. Germans digested the “new federal states” released by the collapse of the Soviet-occupied German Democratic Republic and stopped hankering after Silesia and Königsberg. The new rule was that nobody with historical quarrels outstanding could join the European Union or NATO. And it has worked marvellously.

AFP
AFP

A rabble-rouser in Moscow


But nothing is more dangerous to a great achievement than complacency. As EU expansion stalls and its willpower weakens, old squabbles are returning. Romania should be best friends with Moldova. Instead the two countries (or at least their presidents) have been indulging in a pointless game of historical tit-for-tat. There are low-level rows between Croatia and Slovenia, and between Bulgaria and Macedonia.

Russia has already shown it can stir things up in Estonia—this spring it encouraged a riot over a war memorial in Tallinn. In Ukraine, Crimea could be an even nastier mess: it has Russian nationalists plus a Kremlin naval base and increasingly cross Muslims (Tatars, whose patience has got them nowhere) including a small but ominous Islamist presence. Even if Ukraine had a strong and sensible government, the situation would be tricky. And amid the current mess in national politics, a smouldering problem could blaze up (or be stoked) all too quickly.

Certainly no one should rely on the Kremlin wanting to behave nicely, as it mostly did in the Yeltsin era. Russia’s new submarine expedition to claim the North Pole (or at least a chunk of territory the size of western Europe running up to it) is a clear sign of a newly assertive foreign policy. Countries such as Canada and Denmark (which handles foreign affairs for the 50,000 inhabitants of Greenland) are scrambling to protect their interests. Thankfully, this row is about geology, not ethnography, and affects more polar bears than people. But the same approach applied elsewhere could be incendiary.

133 comments:

Alexander said...

Dear Edward,

You are damn right sometimes. Don’t expect nice behavior. But also don’t expect aggression from Russia. The things like this expedition will repeat. Russia needs acts like this to let people understand, that they are united nation with common aims. And that’s not bad, really. Such a behavior is just a reaction to the ambitions of USA government to rule the world. Be nicer and others will be nicer.

Sincerely yours,
Alexander (28 years old; St-Petersburg; Russia).

P.S.

Sometimes I doubt your professionalism. You take some real facts about Russia in your articles, and write them down in such a way, that I think sometimes I live not in Russia ;-).
Calm down Edward. Why are you so angry at the world? Go fishing. It helps to relax.

And sorry for my English :-)

Flasher T said...

"The Czechs and Slovaks never quarrelled seriously about the divided villages on their (previously unimportant) border."

...and unimportant again, of course, since 2004. The new ten are about to get Schengen coverage, then CZ and SK are only one Euro coin away from being functionally the same country.

Giustino said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Giustino said...

But the floor of the sea beneath the North Pole is ancient Russian land. A Russian fishing vessel perhaps once sunk there, during Ivan the Terrible's regime ensuring Russia's claim for all time ...

Nothing is Free said...

Dumb russkies after more wasteland. Yaawwnn....

Henrik said...

you might want to google "shtokman gas field" to educate yourself on the possible contents of wastelands ..

Nothing is Free said...

There is nothing there, just ice. Move along now.

cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mihnea said...

As I'm sure you know, Romania's problems with Moldova stem from Moldova's duplicitous nature as Voronin attempts to play off the West against Russia and vice-versa for favors.

cabrero said...

Certainly no one should rely on the Kremlin wanting to behave nicely, as it mostly did in the Yeltsin era.

- No, we will not behave nicely, and will protect our interests whatever little doggies bark (no reference to people posted above).

Russia will move on and become a great power. And we will go after more wastelands while others have nothing else to do then to masutrbate on Hitlers' protrait (no referense to persons above).

cabrero said...

And to prevent any speculations about the nature of the arctic expedition I'll give some comments for those who can only see what they like.

It's no flag-planting. The mission itself does not signify that Russia claims the shelf. It's purpose is to gather the evidence to present in to UNO comission in 2009.

"I think this expedition will supply additional scientific evidence for our aspirations," Lavrov said in televised remarks. He added that the issue of which nation what portion of the polar region "will be resolved in strict compliance with international law."


AND the "Mirs" established a direct communication link from the seabed to the International Space Station!!!

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Cabrero,
You definitely seem to have some sense of humor (masturbating on Hitlers portrait (saying Heil Hitler with your very penis)) may look a great joke to you, but unfortunately it is quite an old joke - and probably you found it in your scriptbook, as well as other smart things you have submitted here, like (under previous blog entry) It is certainly sad that no one asked Estonians opinion in 1939 and 1944, but that was how policy was made in that time. It was not up to small countries to decide global things. This is the exact wording used by Volodja Putin in a press conference in may 2005, when answering the questions of Estonian journalist Astrid Kannel.

Russia will move on and become a great power.
It is simply unbelievable, that we have this kind of communication exercise with quite some like-minded people trying hard to convince you that you are wrong. Like men trying to talk to the dolphine.

You have very different semantics, and totally different value system - you can't make most of the readers of Edward Lucas' blog believe anything else, than that you are just another Internet Comissar, hired by Kremlin.

Giustino said...

Russia will probably fail in the end because they don't have a democracy. There is no means for 'changing horses' when things get bad, like in 1917, like in 1991, et cetera.

The Russia will be a great power bit is interesting though. I keep hearing this 'be great' line as if they aren't already the largest country on Earth.

Everyone keeps thinking the next 'Third Reich' but it reminds me more of Mussolini. He also wanted Italy to be great, but he wasn't quite sure how. I get similar vibes from Russia. They want to be great, but how?

For Estonians, being 'great' is winning an olympic medal in cross country skiing or developing a cool new software program.

But for Russia, historically, 'greatness' meant killing a lot of people and parking troops on foreign soil -- as recently as 1989 they held half of Germany.

Let's hope they attempt more of the Estonian path to greatness this next time around, than the path blazed by Russia in the past.

As I said before, I don't think this will happen, sadly. In Estonia, you have the option to elect someone else if your leadership fails. But who can you elect in Russia? Yabloko?

Maybe one day.

cabrero said...

2 Agu-Enrik Ubailves

Amigo, as I clearly stated I didn't mean any particular persons on this thread. I refered to histerical rusuphobic hitler admirers who exist in some countries. Strange that it touched you, for I hope you are not one of them...

"It is certainly sad that no one asked Estonians opinion in 1939 and 1944, but that was how policy was made in that time. It was not up to small countries to decide global things."

- you think it was not like that and Estonia could really deside smth.? I described the reality of that epoch, nothing more, and for ...rd time affirm, that it was not good and I disapprove it.

2 Giustino

But for Russia, historically, 'greatness' meant killing a lot of people and parking troops on foreign soil -- as recently as 1989 they held half of Germany.


- this is a wrong Cold War stereoptype people like Edward Lucas try to impose. It is wrong. We will welcome Estonia to the 2014 winter Olimpics and congratulate it with any achievements.

cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cabrero said...

2 All Russia-ofended Estonians

I guess it would be curious for you to read different point of view on the Russia-Baltic problems.

It's in russian, so I hope you'll understand it.


http://www.rpmonitor.ru/ru/detail_m.php?ID=3749

Colleen said...

As a non-Russian I see Russia's greatness differently than the Estonian Giuastino.

Here are some great things I associate with Russia:

- First and foremost it has a history of defeating empires that have tried to conquer Europe. To defeat these empires it has had to valiantly sacrifice itself.

- It is very multicultural, with Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Buddhist communities thriving pretty much side-by-side. I can't recall the figure off-hand but the amount of indigenous groups present in Russia is astounding and the fact that most local traditions are strong is a testament to Russia's multicultural society.

- A few days after 9/11 Pres. Bush said something to the effect: "Don't let the terrorists win... teach them what America is about... go out and SHOP!" Related to this is the atrophy of society/morality. The news in the U.S. is very much dominated by "entertainment news" - what celebrities are up to, etc. My point is that Russian society is more spiritual and moral.

- Technologically its a powerhouse. Of course we have its groundbreaking space exploration, but I'm also convinced that Russia will lead the way with nuclear fusion, nanotechnology, and deep space exploration. Russian computer programmers are considered the best in the world (the popular saying is: "If you need simple programming work done, give it to India. If you want complicated and serious tasks done, give it to China. But if you want to solve an unsolvable task, give it to the Russians").

- Culturally, Russians are among the world's greatest writers, poets, dancers, and musicians. Of course, Russia is also great athletically and has dominated many sports.

The list goes on and on of course and there's no need to mention natural resources because they are but a gift of the earth.

Giustino, you sound so bitter. No offense, but just try to live your life and pretend that Russia's just not there if you hate it so much. Or, otherwise, just try to to move forward and not live in the past if that's your problem because if everyone lived in the past everyone would be bitter of everyone! Instead, we see Russia and Germany making economic pacts, Greece and Turkey signing a pipeline deal, and France and England speaking to one another in pretty good terms. Russia has had, in my opinion, the greatest injustices and crimes against humanity committed against it, but it holds nothing of no one. It is very much living in the present and for the future, unlike yourself. Again no offense.

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Colleen,
First, Giustino is not an Estonian – he is American like You. But living in Estonia, he sees Russia from very near distance.
Nobody doubts that Russia has been great and in some ways still is. Nobody doubts that it has had a great culture and has talented persons today.
Nobody doubts it is rich in natural resources.
Now, Russia has been a superpower and it wants very much to restore its position. Ant this is a very sensitive moment in history. Its time to watch very carefully, which methods are used to achieve bigger power and influence. Are the changes done in a democratic way? Is the press free? Who gets the control over the resources? is there revanchism involved ? is it becoming more nationalistic and xenophobic? does it use dirty tricks? And so on. These are all very simple questions. Try answering these and you will become really worried.

Giustino said...

I am not Estonian. I am an American of Italian descent. As someone familiar with Italy, I can tell you that in the 1920s Benito Mussolini's fascist government was immensely popular.

I have seen the photos of school children wearing their brown sashes to show their loyalty to Italy. Mussolini also wanted Italy to be great. But in the end they strung his body up in public for all to see.

That is what happens to autocrats. That is why democracy is always preferable to other forms of government, like 'sovereign democracy'.

The reason I worry about Russia not having a real democracy, and thus see failure in its future, is because I know that democracies can make crucial adjustments to buoy society in times of duress. The UK went from Chamberlain to Churchill to Attlee without skipping a beat, and survived the second world war because they had a democratic government. Is Russia as flexible today? The answer is no.

As someone that lives in Estonia, Russia's cultural strength is not of great interest. Estonia is a Lutheran, nordic country, a place where Ingmar Bergman's films or Aki Karismaki's work hit closer to home that something coming out of Moscow. Our orientation, our mental location, is nordic.

Russia mostly matters in the zone of security. And when you have your ambassador harrassed by a fascist youth group, or photos of your foreign minister -- who is a 33 year old guy with two kids and about as normal and European as you can get -- set up with a Nazi mustache at a Nashi youth camp, you worry.

In Finland they have a statue to Mannerheim in downtown Helsinki who fought alongside Hitler in Operation Barbarossa, upon a horse facing east. Not a peep out of Moscow on that one. That's why we worry. It's not the actual content of the controversy. It's the context.

Estonians have a right to worry about another Russian army (like in 1710, like in 1940) coming to rape and pillage and murder. It's gone on for centuries. Why wouldn't they be anxious? Wouldn't you be?

Colleen said...

To the two comments above I obviously disagree and I think that you are obsessed with paranoia of Russia. I think Putin's Russia has been a remarkable welcome for Russia and the world and it is far more democratic than the corporate-controlled American fascist state, but if there's no convincing you there's no convincing you. So be it.

Colleen said...

p.s. PACE Chairman Rene van der Linden: "I have repeatedly criticized the Baltic states for their attitude toward the Russian national minorities." "There were widespread feelings of dissatisfaction in Europe over the Estonian government’s conduct in this situation"

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/07/3E2185CF-D3D6-4683-AD55-7B372DA1448C.html
http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2372343

Giustino said...

To the two comments above I obviously disagree and I think that you are obsessed with paranoia of Russia.

What part of my comment do you disagree with? I made a joke about Russian land claims and I am told that I 'hate Russia.'

Then, piece by piece, I said 1) I am not Estonian, but of Italian descent, and that the 'Russia will be great' reminds me of Mussolini's Italy, the true fascist country;
2) Democracies are stronger than oligarchies or autocracies; 3)Estonia is concerned about developments in Russia primarily for security concerns; and 4) Estonians have every right to concerned about their security having recently spent 50 years under Soviet military occupation, a time when Estonians needed a visa to visit islands in their own occupied country.

So I don't really see what you disagree with. As for Rene Van Der Linden, he can say what he wants. If you read the Amnesty Report and the OSCE Report neither of them criticizes most of Estonian language policy as they can't because it is similar to most other European countries.

The constitution of France, like the constitution of Estonia, sets out that 'the language of France is French' -- Basques and Bretons beware!

But I digress, he can say what he wants and we can talk about it. Estonia is a democracy. In democracies the people get to change the laws. People can make recommendations and so forth and there will be a debate.

You don't need a mysterious 'Kremlin backroom deal' to find out who the next leader will be. There'll actually be an election!!!

Like in New York, we had Mayor Dinkins, but he stunk, and we got a new mayor -- Rudolph Giuliani. You can think of him what you may, but the people chose him. That's democracy. So who are you rooting for in next year's presidential election, Colleen? Who are you hoping the Kremlin will select to succeed Putin?

As an aside, this history nonsense is going on everywhere right now as post-war school children assume office. In Spain, Poland, Japan. They are all fighting about who did what to whom. It's not just Estonia and Russia.

Colleen said...

Once again you sound bitter and upset:
- that Putin is so genuinely popular
- and that Putin is such an effective leader for all of Russia.

And, yes, if you wanted Russia to disintegrate and weaken [and continue to subsidize Eastern Europe] you would justifiably be upset.

But, Putin's popularity is legitimate. Russians are as free as ever. Stability and prosperity is spreading continuously. And, believe it or not, Russia is standing up to American hegemony and recreating a multipolar world, where events are more balanced. All this while having 30 co-official languages in various regions!

Sure, say that Russia is not a democracy and vilify it all you want but in the end of the day you sound somewhat bitter, jealous, and paranoid.

Giustino said...

Once again you sound bitter and upset:

I sound worried, because I live here and every time it seems Russia grows in power, people here die. I hope this recent turn proves me wrong. The historical track record ain't so great. The Nashists having their summer camp with a picture of Estonian leaders with a sign reading 'know your enemy' isn't encouraging.

that Putin is so genuinely popular
- and that Putin is such an effective leader for all of Russia.



Do you realize how creepy you sound? I don't want an 'effective, popular' leader. In a democracy the leader should be a public servant who rules at the request of the people.

Like I said, Mussolini was popular too.

And, yes, if you wanted Russia to disintegrate and weaken [and continue to subsidize Eastern Europe] you would justifiably be upset.

I am not that worried about Russian developments because the nordic economy has managed to function quite well over the last 50+ years and Estonia is part of that economy.

But, Putin's popularity is legitimate. Russians are as free as ever.

What a great statement. A country where most media is owned by the government isn't that free. If all the TV news channels told me that Putin was great, I might believe them too. And if I was an independent journalist? Like Anna Politkovskaja? What then?

You wonder why a British journalist isn't too keen on Russia, where the journalists are killed, and their killers never found.

Stability and prosperity is spreading continuously. And, believe it or not, Russia is standing up to American hegemony and recreating a multipolar world, where events are more balanced.

How were they not before? I have heard this 'protecting our interests crap' before, but Yeltsin certainly 'protected' Russia's interests in Chechnya and South Ossetia in the 1990s. They fought conflicts there. Today they just ban wines and deport Georgian kids. Sounds like they are going soft.

Sure, say that Russia is not a democracy and vilify it all you want but in the end of the day you sound somewhat bitter, jealous, and paranoid.

I am paranoid because I am aware of history. I am not jealous because I like where I live and things here are pretty good. I am not vilifying Russia, I am -- again -- saying that democracies are strong and oligarchies are weak. And that's why I don't think Russia will do as well as you would like it to. Because one party rule usually leads to stagnation (see Mexico, USSR, Brazil during the pre-Lula years et cetera). If the gears aren't there for democratic change, undemocratic change becomes inevitable. That threatens domestic stability.

cabrero said...

Thank you Colleen, it's really encouraging...

2 Giustino

I actually missed that initial note that you are an American.

Then how can you pretend that your opinion on Russian issues is right when you live in an information environment generally negative and anti-russian, when you have news mostly coming from one, anti-russian, side, when you have no access to russian media. People that surround you are of your age 27, right? They were 10, when the USSR still existed and were raised with constant critics and accusations of Russia all around. You first spend a couple days watching Russian news, then say whether they are propagandistic or not. You just can not be “objective” as we say. Whatever you state about what is going on in Russia is as correct as whatever I would say about USA 30 years ago, living in USSR under soviet propaganda.

Besides that, when you accuse smbd. in smth., you have to possess a reliable evidential base and be aware of the real motives of “crime”.

Like an example with Politcovskaya. You assume, that she was killed as part of some freedom of word suppression policy, right? And deaths of 12 journalists from the CPJ list is a sequential chain of that policy?
http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2005/russia_murders/russia_murders.html

Ok… Lets investigate…

For every crime there should be a motive. There were and there is NO motive for Putin to get rid of those journalists. That’s general nature of Russian authority that no Watergate can ever happen – good it or bad that’s other subject. In Russia it’s practically impossible that a provincial newsmaker, or a person like Politkovskaya, can somehow jeopardize president’s position. By the way even in USSR dissidents were mostly sent to madhouses or deportated, but not killed.
You can certainly accuse Putin in having weak control over local authorities, corruption and criminalization, poorely working police and e.t.c. But don’t forget - that heritage, a very seek country, Vova got in 1999. And the factors that caused those deaths are continuation of the previous anarchy period.

And now let’s check the list (I’ll skip names, only give order numbers from the “12” list):
1 - July 16, 2000, …after reporting on oil industry corruption
2 - July 26, 2000, …alleged corruption in the deputy governor’s office
3- September 21, 2000, …human rights abuses in Chechnya
4- October 3, 2000, …local political scene
5- November 21, 2000, cameraman
6- September 18, 2001, criticized local officials
7- March 9, 2002, investigating the struggle for control of a metallurgical plant
8- April 29, 2002, no data, but surely, local deals
9- April 18, 2003, critical reporting on several influential politicians
10 - July 9, 2004, exposed the workings of the country’s shadowy billionaire tycoons
11 - June 28, 2005, criticized the Dagestan opposition
12 - October 7, 2006, investigative reports on human rights…in Chechnya

Only Politckovskaya directly criticized Kremlin, but by the time she was killed she got way out of Putin’s attention (if she really was in).
We can discuss Litvinenko , but I doubt that we find any motive

And besides that, I assure you that an oppressive system, lead by Putin, so worried about shutting up opposition, will use murder as a last media for it brings too much attention.

I personally feel really sorry about those people, but connecting their deaths to Putins strategy is the same thing as “black helicopters” (if you know what I’m talking about).

So things dont' look the same from different sides and when you look deeper.

Also I want you to know, that I am no friend to Soviet ideology, I do stand for democracy, personal freedoms, free market and stuff and I dont like the leading russian party "United Russia"... Also I am not an Internet Comissar.

P.S. “For Estonians, being 'great' is winning an olympic medal in cross country skiing or developing a cool new software program”
- Sorry to disappoint you dude… We do win gold medals from time to time in cross-country skiing and make cool software.

cabrero said...

To strenghthen the examle about journ.

As a typical example, several of the journalists were from the city of Togliatti, where the key automotive factory is located. In 90�s it became extremely criminalized, because the local mafia took control of car and car parts sales busyness (Berezovsky also got a la-a-rge chunk of it). The local authorities got corrupted. How things are there now I don�t know for sure, certainly better, but in 1999, when Putin became a pr.minister, it was worse than Chicago in 1930�s. It�s no surprise that a reporter got killed for touching a sensitive LOCAL topic.

Is Putin personally responsible for that and other similar cases, should he bear guilt for not taking personal control over each local corruption and political assassination case, is that your point?

We can certainly discuss that matter too � how much personal responsibility a president in a country like Russia (taking in consideration all the factors) should take, what priorities to have, and what is the margin for him being �good� or �evil�.

cabrero said...

And read this below. I do not give credits to the author. His words just repeat in better english what I think.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=24987

Giustino said...

Then how can you pretend that your opinion on Russian issues is right when you live in an information environment generally negative and anti-russian, when you have news mostly coming from one, anti-russian, side, when you have no access to russian media.

That's a good criticism. But I don't read Russian and it's going to stay that way for a long time. Italian is on my list after Estonian. So I will have to subsist on English, Estonian, and your odd Scandinavian piece (I can read some Swedish).

People that surround you are of your age 27, right? They were 10, when the USSR still existed and were raised with constant critics and accusations of Russia all around.

That's right, I was 10 years old when the Berlin wall was taken down. It was a pretty inspiring time to be a pre-adolescent.

I had a lot of friends who had families in the captive nations. It was nice to see that they could finally go and visit their relatives without a nightmarish visa process to assess their threat to the communist state.

One great photo in my wife's photo album is from that time. They are all on a boat to Saaremaa. Only years prior they would have needed a visa to visit an island in their own country. Freedom does exist.


You first spend a couple days watching Russian news, then say whether they are propagandistic or not. You just can not be “objective” as we say.

I read most of the ITAR-TASS and RIA Novosti and Kommersant pieces that are translated. Occasionally there is a hint of analysis. Mostly it's just repeating the foreign ministry line. KLike did you know that all Russian speakers in Estonia are oppressed. The ones I know that are really successful don't count. They are oppressed, I am sure they just must not know it. :)

Like an example with Politcovskaya. You assume, that she was killed as part of some freedom of word suppression policy, right?

See, you assume I am making arguments I am not based on your previous experience with 'Russophobes.'

The reality is that I am not making the 'Putin killed Anna' argument because, like you said, I don't have any evidence.

But I do know that if I was a journalist, I wouldn't want to work in Russia for fear of being killed by somebody.

And I am pretty sure that if I was as 'unimportant' as Politkovskaja, my killers would never be caught.

We can discuss Litvinenko , but I doubt that we find any motive

No one will ever find the people that killed him either. Isn't it wonderful?

Sorry to disappoint you dude… We do win gold medals from time to time in cross-country skiing and make cool software.

So do the Estonians, which is why Estonia is 'great' -- although the idea of 'seeking greatness' for greatness' sake seems a bit silly.

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Cabrero:
I follow russian media on a regular basis, it is like an adrenaline dependency. You can decide about how adequate picture of an event you will get by an example of Estonian bronze meddling:
*First, Estonia was and is continuously depicted as a nazi and apartheid state (which is totally ridiculous - if any of the "facts" given by the russian media were true, some influential European states, who suffered from the nazis most (eg. France), would consider immediate sanctions).
* Bronze soldier was cut into pieces (RTV, Itar-TASS) - even poor Russian MPs believed this, which made their visit to Estonia utterly ridiculous.
* Russian "hero" Dimitri Ganin was killed by a)Estonian police (or police car), b)Estonian doctors, c) skinheads. This statement was launched by most major information channels. (Investigation is still going on, so far its clear that looter Ganin was attacked and beaten by the clients of the looted "Tavistock" pub)
* Old German TV reporter was beaten (to the head) in the D-terminal until he went bleeding. (ITAR-TASS- 28. apr.)
* Estonian MP Nikolai Maspanov saw, how police killed one protester, another was later killed in the terminal D. (Same source) Altogether Estonian police practiced unbelievable violence towards "innocent" protesters, including children, elderly people and even foreigners.
* In many Estonian schools russian pupils were forced to read the article about Estonian occupation. After that the education officials told to the pupil, that they are the descendants of the occupants. In Lasnamäe school, children had to repeat: "I am a child of the occupant." (Gazeta. ru. 01.05)
Now, these are just few examples that came into my mind, I have not collected them specially.
If I believed this crap I would hate Estonia too. But russians get all their information from these sources.
Even russian dissident Valeria Novodvorskaya, who has many times tried to protect Estonia in this dispute, repeats sometimes amazing lies from Russian media.

cabrero said...

Dear Giustino,

my purpuse is not to convince you that in Russia everything is OK and perfect, for it is not, but to show you that Russia's image is many times exposed in a wrong and and incorrect way. I just dont want you and others to accept my country as some ready-to-be totalitary stalin-like state.

Journalists and Politcovskaya was a topic speculated by western media to expose some gov. anti-free press policy. I hope that you saw that it is not.

We are now going through the period most western countries gone through within decades in order to become developed politically balanced states. We obviously have sharp topics, mainly related with money, dangerous for journalists. But journalism is a dangerous profession.

"What a great statement. A country where most media is owned by the government isn't that free. If all the TV news channels told me that Putin was great, I might believe them too. And if I was an independent journalist? Like Anna Politkovskaja? What then?"

"The reality is that I am not making the 'Putin killed Anna' "

- seems quiet contradictory

"See, you assume I am making arguments I am not based on your previous experience with 'Russophobes.' "

- I didn't argue with you much on the current situation. I disapprove the way many russians were treated all the time before. You just can't get my point that estonian authorities could've made a compromise with russians who moved in from, lets say, 60 to 80's and give them full citizenship and establish language restrictions stage-by-stage. I'm shure, most people would appreciate that and learn language.


2 Agu-Enrik Ubailves

What you said about the riot events is partially true. But things you exposed were mainly traps any media would fall in during such events. They get news from wherever they can state smth and then deny themselves right away. This was with about statue cut\not cut.

As for Dmitry, honestly, I dont keep track on that case. But if you provide me with any recent reference stating or trying to convince public that he was killed by the police we can discuss it.

The same is with the school case. I'll try to find the article and see, what was used as a source of that information and then find out whether it was an interview or some propagandistic fact manipulation.

Good that you brought example with Novodvorskaya. She is an indicator that maybe our media are not that wrong.

As for police brutality, it would be interesting to know your opinion on that

http://www.dni.ru/news/incidents/2007/5/4/106128.html

Even if you beleive the police official declaration (not there, but I read it) that he was found alrteady beaten, then why he was not delivered to the hospital and the Embassy was not contacted as soon as possible.

rusak said...

*First, Estonia was and is continuously depicted as a nazi and apartheid state (which is totally ridiculous - if any of the "facts" given by the russian media were true, some influential European states, who suffered from the nazis most (eg. France), would consider immediate sanctions).

I would say Estonia has been depicted as more of a "Nazi-sympathizing" state rather than a "Nazi" state, but anyway... Regarding apartheid, there is no need to even exaggerate anything, the facts speak for themselves, it is effectively an apartheid state. You don't need to have formal apartheid laws, the international community would frown on that, and there are ways around that. You can't "explain away" the lack of ethnic Russians in prominent government positions. There is pervasive systemic and societal discrimination. Feel free to face facts.

* Bronze soldier was cut into pieces (RTV, Itar-TASS) - even poor Russian MPs believed this, which made their visit to Estonia utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, that was pretty despicable in my view, but it was practically invited by the Estonian authorities who chose to move the statue like thieves in the night instead of doing it openly and publicly, which would have prevented any such speculation. And I honestly think this was poor journalistic standards rather than deliberate lying because I haven't see this repeated and it would have been really stupid to set themselves up like that if it could be so easily disproved. As far as lies and distortions go, however, this wouldn't be any worse than Estonian officials and media (and defenders of the Good Ests in the West) pretty much openly accused the Russian government of waging "internet warfare" against poor little Estonia, without any evidence of course. The experts do not support these claims.

The entire situation around the relocation of the statue was ridiculous. First Estonian leaders and politicians say that the statue represents occupation, oppression etc. They say that Soviet soldiers were occupiers, bandits, marauders, drunkards etc. That's why the statue must be moved, right. Then they go place a wreath and rebury the soldiers with military honors. What the hell was that? They did that for the West to see. The Est establishment was basically saying: "Aha, see, we're not so bad after all!" Ok, so how about a Russian in the cabinet of ministers? "NOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

* Russian "hero" Dimitri Ganin was killed by a)Estonian police (or police car), b)Estonian doctors, c) skinheads. This statement was launched by most major information channels. (Investigation is still going on, so far its clear that looter Ganin was attacked and beaten by the clients of the looted "Tavistock" pub)

Yeah, and the wonderful Estonian media immediately proclaimed, without any evidence as usual, that Ganin was killed by "fellow looters". And the Est public went along with it like good little sheep, I remember how they were proudly repeating this online. The Estonian media actually tried to use the murder of Dmitry Ganin to further smear the rioters, and by extension the entire Russian minority. Where are your complaints about that?

* Old German TV reporter was beaten (to the head) in the D-terminal until he went bleeding. (ITAR-TASS- 28. apr.)

Some innocent bystanders were in fact hurt.

* Estonian MP Nikolai Maspanov saw, how police killed one protester, another was later killed in the terminal D. (Same source) Altogether Estonian police practiced unbelievable violence towards "innocent" protesters, including children, elderly people and even foreigners.

If he said that, then they would have just quoted him.

As far Estonian police, understand this already, we are not going to approve of your apartheid state police beating up our young people under any circumstances. Understand that and keep it moving.

* In many Estonian schools russian pupils were forced to read the article about Estonian occupation. After that the education officials told to the pupil, that they are the descendants of the occupants. In Lasnamäe school, children had to repeat: "I am a child of the occupant." (Gazeta. ru. 01.05)

They quote some "parent" about this but it very clearly says "Официального подтверждения этой информации пока нет." -- "There is no official confirmation of this information as of yet."

cabrero said...

2 Agu

Actually there is no need for russian propaganda to work hard in order to discredit Estonia, for your own authorities were constantly raising tension, supporting it's negative image in Russia. And it has been done by:

- constant blaming of Russia in "occupation" and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

- ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it's forcefull assimilation

- mocking on subjects "holly" for us. That's quiet an example
http://lenta.ru/news/2007/04/24/grave/

- demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.

Giustino said...

to Cabrero

I just dont want you and others to accept my country as some ready-to-be totalitary stalin-like state.

Who can really tell these things. I see photos of life in 1940, it wasn't that different. They had telephones and planes and trains and automobiles. They too perhaps thought that they were living at the end of history. Then Hitler signed a pact with Molotov, and several weeks later the war began.

Journalists and Politcovskaya was a topic speculated by western media to expose some gov. anti-free press policy. I hope that you saw that it is not.

Believe it or not, I don't have a huge interest in Russian politics or domestic events. I say this because many Americans do -- they are Russophiles -- they study Russian, they know the difference between Sergei Shoigu and Sergei Yastrzhembsky, they wax poetic about Russian 'greatness'.

All I can say about Politkovskaja is that she was a well-known journalist who was shot in the head. I don't believe her killers will ever be brought to justice.

But journalism is a dangerous profession.

Journalists expect they might be hurt in places like Iraq. But when guys like Paul Klebnikov get shot dead late at night walking down the street, one has to reorient their view of Russia.

If we see Russia as a one-party, Asian superstate (like China) -- then these kinds of things 'make sense.' If you try to see it as a European democracy, then these are obvious reasons for concern.

You just can't get my point that estonian authorities could've made a compromise with russians who moved in from, lets say, 60 to 80's and give them full citizenship and establish language restrictions stage-by-stage.

That would have been called the 'general amnesty of 1992'. It didn't happen. The rightwing parties aren't 'amnesty' kinds of people.

I'm shure, most people would appreciate that and learn language.

I am not sure.

to Rusak

Regarding apartheid, there is no need to even exaggerate anything, the facts speak for themselves, it is effectively an apartheid state.

If Estonian was an apartheid state, Russians would need special passes to visit Estonian towns and wouldn't be allowed to intermarry with Estonians. There's only been one 'apartheid' state (apartheid is an Afrikaans word, afterall).

You don't need to have formal apartheid laws, the international community would frown on that, and there are ways around that. You can't "explain away" the lack of ethnic Russians in prominent government positions.

Your measure of what makes an apartheid state is how many government positions are held by ethnic Russians?

In Germany, 19 percent of the population is foreign born. Yet not one of Merkel's 15 ministers is a minority.

In this year's Riigikogu there are at least eight (out of 101) members that are ethnic Russians. 15 percent of citizens (in 2006) spoke Russian as their first language.

But here's another case of inequality in Estonia. Estonia is 55 percent female, yet only 22 Riigikogu seats are held by women. I guess Estonia must not only be an apartheid state, but also a patriarchy where women are systematically denied representation. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, that was pretty despicable in my view, but it was practically invited by the Estonian authorities who chose to move the statue like thieves in the night instead of doing it openly and publicly, which would have prevented any such speculation.

It wasn't exactly the government's fault their police were assaulted with rocks and bottled for hours on end, resulting in broken limbs and various other injuries.

But look at how ridiculous this whole situation is. This is a statue we are talking about. The government moved a statue and it resulted in two nights of looting and untold injuries. That's disturbing.

The entire situation around the relocation of the statue was ridiculous.

Agreed.

First Estonian leaders and politicians say that the statue represents occupation, oppression etc.

It does to many people of the less likely to break windows and throw rocks at police variety.

They say that Soviet soldiers were occupiers, bandits, marauders, drunkards etc.

They were in many cases. Don't ask me, ask all the aging rape victims residing in Estonia.

That's why the statue must be moved, right.

Wrong. History is full of terrible things. The reason they had to move it -- and failed quite miserably to make clear -- is that there were 13 people buried under a sidewalk in a place where nationalists of all varieties came to stir up society.

Since they moved it, nobody has vandalized the Bronze Soldier. Had it stayed there, people would still be dumping red paint on it every fortnight.

Then they go place a wreath and rebury the soldiers with military honors. What the hell was that? They did that for the West to see.

Estonia is part of the West. So far all their plans have been carried out as previously announced. Idiotic politicking aside -- the intention was always to move the whole thing to a military cemetery. What do you think they were going to do with the bodies? Dump them in the River Narva?

The Est establishment was basically saying: "Aha, see, we're not so bad after all!" Ok, so how about a Russian in the cabinet of ministers? "NOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

You are the only one making such demands, Rusak. There is no political party in Estonia saying, 'hey, can't we have the finance ministry?'

The ethnic-Russian dominated Constitution Party (which got one percent of the vote) is the descendant of the Estonian United People's Party which once had 6 seats in the Riigikogu in 1999-2003. But they are basically a dead party now, even while erthnic Russians grow in proportion of the electorate.

Why? Most ethnic Russians, as previously discussed vote for the Center Party or for the Reform Party. Neither of them has advocated any kind of quota system based on ethnicity for Estonia's cabinet.

You also should understand that a) Russians in Estonia are located in two places -- Tallinn and parts of Ida-Virumaa -- and that many of Estonia's political parties are 'based' elsewhere.

Reform Party is 'based' out of Tartu. Isn't it interesting that in Andrus Ansip's cabinet are Tõnis Lukas (elected in Tartu), Justice Minister Rein Lang (born in Tartu), Defence Minister Jaak Aaviksoo (born in Tartu), and Minister of Culture Laine Jänes (former Tartu mayor).

The Social Democrats, on the other hand, have a stronger showing in the rural and island counties. Hence you have Finance Minsiter Ivari Padar (from Võrumaa), Population Affairs Minister Urve Palo (from Haapsalu), and Internal Affairs Minister Jüri Pihl (from Saaremaa).

So far there hasn't been an Ida-Virumaa bloc emerging in Estonian politics, maybe only through Keskerakond. I not sure though that if they won the election they might consider affirmative action for Estonian minsitries.

The Estonian media actually tried to use the murder of Dmitry Ganin to further smear the rioters, and by extension the entire Russian minority. Where are your complaints about that?

Actually a good chunk of the rioters were ethnic Estonians. I think that everybody hated them after they went apeshit and looted stores, set cars on fire, and basically acted like assholes.

I am glad I wasn't living in Tallinn at the time. If my little kids were woken up by the sound of marauding drunken youth chanting 'CCCP Forever' and throwing rocks I would have been extremely pissed off. I am impressed with the extent that the Estonian police (many of them also ethnic Russians) held their cool. If that had happened in Los Angeles (as it did in 1992) things would have gone down far worse.

Some innocent bystanders were in fact hurt.

At the WTO Protests in Seattle in 1999 my friends were sprayed with rubber bullets for doing nothing. I wonder how many people were hurt at the G8 Summit protests this year. Protests are crazy. It's not like a ride that you can get on and off of. If the police say 'move' -- move.

As far Estonian police, understand this already, we are not going to approve of your apartheid state police beating up our young people under any circumstances.

At what point did Estonian citizens become 'your young people'? How are you treating my 'American compatriots' in Moscow? Are you forcing them to learn your language? Do you insist that they communicate with local officials in Russian. Shame on you! ;)

Giustino said...

- constant blaming of Russia in "occupation" and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

In Estonia, both are viewed as actors hostile to the Estonian state because they were.

The fact that the Soviet Union authorized the murder or imprisonment (and subsequent death) of all pre-war heads of state (save Konstantin Päts, lucky enough to die in a psychiatric hospital in 1956, and August Rei, who continued the government in exile) means that no one here will ever feel good about the Soviet Union.

You just don't murder all of a countries founding fathers and expect people to 'let it go'. If America invaded Russia tomorrow, deported Putin to Alaska, and then proceeded to execute every leader from Dmitri Medvedev to Sergei Lavrov, you'd remember it for a very long time.

ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it's forcefull assimilation

There is no policy of 'forceful 'assimilation'. The policy is called 'integration'. Estonian society existed before 1991. To play an active role in Estonian society, one must have a knowledge of Estonian language.

See your criticism is contraditory. You want Russians to have greater representation in government. That would mean that more Russian-speakers would be able to participate in the Estonian discourse in the Estonian language. And when the state tries to create that situation where young people are fluent in Estonian, you criticize that too.

So what's it going to be? Unemployment and political impotence or school reform? Pick one.

mocking on subjects "holly" for us. That's quiet an example
http://lenta.ru/news/2007/04/24/grave/


Ansip isn't the only jerk in office on the Eurasian continent. I mean the Russians withdrew their signature from the border treaty just because it referenced documents referring to the Soviet occupation. Get over it -- the USSR took over this country the same way Hitler took Denmark and The Netherlands. Estonians don't want more land. They don't even want an apology. They just want an acknowledgement of historical reality.

demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.

But if Red Army veterans -- responsible for war crimes as mentioned -- are permitted to gather wearing their uniforms, then how exactly are Estonian SS veterans different?

I don't think the state should 'pick sides' although many interpret the 20th SS as being conscripted to 'keep the Soviets out' in order to reestablish the republic.

The official line -- that should be adhered to, no matter what Isamaa-Res Publica Liit argues -- is that both should be seen as movements or actors hostile to the Estonian republic.

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Gentelmen, I have some other business to do and have to leave your company for now. I just leave you a set of ineteresting concepts for consideration:
Ad Hominem
Ad Hominem Tu Quoque
Appeal to Authority
Appeal to Belief
Appeal to Common Practice
Appeal to Consequences of a Belief
Appeal to Emotion
Appeal to Fear
Appeal to Flattery
Appeal to Novelty
Appeal to Pity
Appeal to Popularity
Appeal to Ridicule
Appeal to Spite
Appeal to Tradition
Bandwagon
Begging the Question
Biased Sample
Burden of Proof
Circumstantial Ad Hominem
Composition
Confusing Cause and Effect
Division
False Dilemma
Gambler's Fallacy
Genetic Fallacy
Guilt By Association
Hasty Generalization
Ignoring A Common Cause
Middle Ground
Misleading Vividness
Personal Attack
Poisoning the Well
Post Hoc
Questionable Cause
Red Herring
Relativist Fallacy
Slippery Slope
Special Pleading
Spotlight
Straw Man
Two Wrongs Make A Right

cabrero said...

2 Giustino

All you said about journalist's issues is right. And this does not contradict with what I said - things in Russia are far from perfect. And we don't pretend to be a European-type democracy, though neither we are a chinese-like state. I just don't tolerate attemts to demonize us.

Your comments on Tallin riot issues are right too, but the sad thing is that similar events in Moscow were presented as "democracy opression", though it was a defense of public order and prevention of what happened in Tallin or in globalists-suffered cities. Double standards...

"In Estonia, both are viewed as actors hostile to the Estonian state because they were"

- that's a wrong-wrong thing. It said that this concept is constantly popularized in Estonian society. Under Germany estonian's fate was to become a nation of swineherds and servants, with no autonomy and later no nation at all. Indidsputible fact is that we finally conserved their national identity, intelectual and economic potential. The history of Russia (USSR) Estonia-relations can not be focused exclusively on Stalin and repressions. The only wrong was that we gave estonians no choise. With Stalin's death ended his era. It's no good to pose us as occupants exlusively and ignore all the positive we did to Estonia. Why dont' they acknowledge the good, then we'll consider it fair to acknowledge the bad.

"I mean the Russians withdrew their signature from the border treaty just because it referenced documents referring to the Soviet occupation. Get over it..."

- refering to what I said above, it's Estonia, who has to get over it and stop living in the past. Give me a break, it was a technical treaty, we shouldnt've let it be politicized.

"But if Red Army veterans -- responsible for war crimes as mentioned -- are permitted to gather wearing their uniforms, then how exactly are Estonian SS veterans different?"

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here. By puting on it's uniform you sign pact with Satan. As for Red Army, maybe some single particular people should bear guilt, if it is proved, but in general it is a liberator of Europe and deserves eternal gratitude of people. And yours too, for you grandfarther (if he fought) had to do it only from aug44 to may45.

I admit that SS veterans have right to gather, but officials have no moral right to praise them and call them "freedom fighters".

Giustino said...

that's a wrong-wrong thing. It said that this concept is constantly popularized in Estonian society.

No, it's true. The NKVD killed most of Estonia's pre-war leaders. That's Satan right there. Those orders came from Moscow.

Indidsputible fact is that we finally conserved their national identity, intelectual and economic potential.

1) You worked to destroy national identity by a) banning national flag, b) prohibiting singing of national anthem, c) making Russian language co-official and the language of all official activity, d) prohibiting open discussion of Estonia's pre-war republic, e) mass population transfer.

2) Those Estonian intellectuals that were not killed or imprisoned in 1940 were forced to flee to live in Stockholm as refugees. When a new generation was allowed to regenerate, free of Stalinist rule, they worked tirelessly for independence again.

3) Economic potential? Have you seen Estonia? Now go to Finland and Sweden. Estonia is one of the poorest countries in Europe while its closest neighbors are among the richest. That's communism right there.

The history of Russia (USSR) Estonia-relations can not be focused exclusively on Stalin and repressions. The only wrong was that we gave estonians no choise.

I am sorry, you are lying to yourself. I know its a source of great pride for you, but you are wrong. There's no justification for murdering thousands of innocent people just to 'save' them from some possible future death.

There is no logic in 'we had to deport your grandmother' to save you from Hitler. I am sure the Nazis had similar logic. 'We have to occupy Denmark to save it from Britain.'

The word 'repressions' doesn't sum it up. People that are 'repressed' usually have rights taken from them. People that are killed by secret police because they own a bank or a farm or fought in the War of Independence or because they are related to them are not 'repressed', they are murdered.

refering to what I said above, it's Estonia, who has to get over it and stop living in the past. Give me a break, it was a technical treaty, we shouldnt've let it be politicized.

It wasn't politicized. It had an internal preamble to amend a previously agreed upon border.

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here.

The NKVD is a criminal organization. Estonia has successfully prosecuted NKVD personnel for war crimes and had those convinctions upheld in European courts. If you load children into cattle cars sending them to possible death, you're a war criminal. I mean our first president since restoration of independence here was one of those kids. How many classmates did he lose?

As for Red Army, maybe some single particular people should bear guilt, if it is proved, but in general it is a liberator of Europe and deserves eternal gratitude of people.

The Soviets and the Nazis started the war by dividing up Europe in 1939. They attempted to reverse Brest Litovsk and Versailles. The Soviets got their empire back, but in the end, 1918 has proved a longer lasting settlement.

And yours too, for you grandfarther (if he fought) had to do it only from aug44 to may45.

My grandfathers did not fight in World War II.

I admit that SS veterans have right to gather, but officials have no moral right to praise them and call them "freedom fighters".

I agree. As I said, both movements were hostile to the Republic of Estonia. Both governments killed thousands of Estonian citizens. Both should be viewed here as equally criminal.

Giustino said...

Cabrero,

Look, I am getting a bit sick and tired of talking about World War II. It ended 34 years before my birth and it's been over for a long time.

For Russians, it's a great source of pride -- they defended their territory from a foreign invasion. They also defeated one of the most evil villains of history who cowardly took his own life rather than face justice.

For Estonians, though, it's a source of shame. They were invaded by both sides and barely fought back -- usually in foreign uniforms of Finland (like the Erna group) or Germany. Their founding fathers were put down like dogs. Their poets huddled into boats and fled, hoping that the Atlantic Charter would restore their independence. Their young men, deserted by the world, hid in the forests rather than submit to foreign rule.

That's why I wish the Estonian government would stop talking about 1944 and keep talking about 1918. In 1918, the Estonian troops repulsed both German and Russian attacks and won their independence.

That's something that needs to be talked about. And I have to say that Estonia's true independence holidays commemorating those victories here are far more joyous, positive, happy, progressive.

On February 24 students here wear their fraternity/sorority caps and unfurl the sinine-must-valge. All of this world war II crap -- deportations, death camps, mass executions, unmarked graves. It's just awful. It's a nice indicator of how low humanity can go, but it's not exactly chicken soup for the national soul.

So yeah, 1918. It rules. My grandma was born in 1918 and she is still alive. MAdolph Joffe and the Bolshevist diplomats of that time understood -- more than Russia's current elite -- how stupid it was to fight wars against Estonians and Finns. They made the right choice then. I wish the Russian side too could commemorate that just decision to let Estonia go.

cabrero said...

1) You worked to destroy national identity by a) banning national flag, b) prohibiting singing of national anthem, c) making Russian language co-official and the language of all official activity, d) prohibiting open discussion of Estonia's pre-war republic, e) mass population transfer.

- this is not what forms national identity, these are mainly governmental attributes. We kept estonians within their national borders, picked their local iders among estonians, put no obstacles to promote their culture and language. So in 1991 it was a matter of reelecting leaders and changing flags.

2) Economic potential? Have you seen Estonia? Now go to Finland and Sweden. Estonia is one of the poorest countries in Europe while its closest neighbors are among the richest. That's communism right there.

- it was not different before communism. Lower or higher, but they have their ports, roads, factories and educated people and it was given to them with no compromise.

3) Soviet Army is not NKVD. All the examples of deportations you brought have nothing to do with armed forces. They came to Estonia to fight nazi and their collaborators, the fought and died heroically, so estonians should respect this and not rewrite history. I repeat, soviet soldriers, who came there in 1944 did come to invade and persecute, dont’ mix up Stalins regime and NKVD with warheroes. Those who died from germant bullet should be respected.


However, yes, you convinced me, that we were occupants an supressors, and brought nothing but grieve to poor Estonia. Now I am waiting for Ansip and all of the Estonian politians born before, lets say, 1970 to renounce.

“Born in Tartu, Ansip graduated from the University of Tartu with a degree in Chemistry in 1979. He worked as engineer in Tartu State University in 1979-1983 (with 2-ears break for mandatory military service). He was Instructor of Industry Department and Head of Organisational Department of Tartu District Committee of Estonian Communist Party in 1986-1988”

- he is a fucking collaborator. He not only received education and money from the occupational bloody regime, served to strengthen it’s economy and science, he also served its evil Communist party. Besides that, his educational certificates are illegal, for illegal was SU and it’s authorities in Estonia. How can he pretend to make executive desicions, for he didnt officially graduate a hughschool?!!!

It seems like the president is the only descent person.

Or maybe Estonia should stop that stupid anti-russian speculation about “occupation”, “stalin” and leave dead soldiers alone an get a life?

"I wish the Russian side too could commemorate that just decision to let Estonia go."

- we already let it go. If there was some disappointment about that it ended in 93-94. So it's them who shoul stop cheap bargaining and show respect to the neighbour.

Giustino said...

Or maybe Estonia should stop that stupid anti-russian speculation about “occupation”, “stalin” and leave dead soldiers alone an get a life?

It's just part of our history here, no more, no less. It's part of every family's history. Both of my wife's great grandfathers fought in 1918. Because of this they were both sent to Perm by the Soviet government after the country was occupied. Not only them, but their children. Their property? Confiscated.

These stories form the fabric of recent Estonian genealogy. Dead uncles. Dead aunts. The question of "what happened to him?" could very definitely carry the answer "he was killed by the Soviets." It was the cause of sorrow for a lot of people.

This is not your fault, nor Putin's fault, nor Russia's fault. The men behind this nightmare -- Zhdanov, Beria -- are long dead. But it does frighten me that Nashi youth groups are wholly unaware of this. It's important to know your history. And what kind of country has an official youth group anyway? And its webpage is .su for Soviet Union? Just what we need. Not.

Anyway, as most would agree, World War II is a sad chapter in human history. In Estonian history it is especially sad because the country lost its independence for 50 years. But that is over, and I think after this Bronze Soldier crap, people are finally done with it. I hope they are.

I actually think World War II is a bit of a mental disease. Have you noticed how every 'bad guy' in the world these days is 'the next Hitler'. As if they weren't bad of their own accord. Bush, Putin, Ansip -- they've all been compared to Hitler. It's like World War II is a lobotomy for the masses that stops them from thinking critically, plays on their fears and emotions, and readies them to confront 'the next Hitler.' It's mostly crap though. How does it really impact my day to day life? Very little.

For Estonia, 1918 is more important than 1945. In February in Estonia people eat vastlapäevakoogid and go sleigh riding. It's an all around positive feeling experience. Next year they will hold the Independence Day ball in Pärnu, where independence was declared 90 years ago. I am looking forward to it.

cabrero said...

Finally we got to smth. we're both agree with.

Stalin did a lot of damage to Russia either. My mothers family was deported from central Russia to Siberia and then scattered. So I have no relatives from my moms side.

But unfortunately Estonian authorires dont want distinct Stalin, post-stalin USSR, Soviet people, Russia and Putin. They ignore good, speculate in the bad, though most of them, like Ansip, are products of the same system as we are.

I afraid Bronze soldier became a logical result of their policy. The crap won't stop, and people will remember.

Well,

it was nice arguing with you,

take care

Ray D. Noper said...

- demonstrative tolerance of nazism and honouring people who wore SS uniform.

About honoring soldiers who fought in SS uniform - Nuremberg Trials specifically exempted Baltic Waffen-SS conscripts from charges (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/09-30-46.htm), on the grounds that they were drafted and had no personal choice about that.
Now, why should these people be less honored than those who fought in Red Army ?
There is no tolerance for nazism. Please, give ONE proof for that there is.

- constant blaming of Russia in "occupation" and equalizing it with Nazi Germany

Russia have not given clear signals, whether it is a successor of Soviet Union or not. If it is, the question of occupation stays, if not, why not clearly say that and stop whining about "destruction of the mightiest of mighty SU".

- mocking on subjects "holly" for us.
Now, we want to rise a statue for those who died in mass deportations on Red Square. Can we, please ? No, the official stance that a) there was no occupation, and b) the were no genocide in SU mocks subjects holy to every thinkig Easter European.
And, oh, it's also very symbolical you put quotes around "holy" in context of "holy for you", also the typo making it mean 'happy, joyful'...

- ignoring interests of russian diaspora and policy of it's forcefull assimilation
Interest of Russian diaspora are not ignored. Interests of Russia that are projected through few members of Russian diaspora are. Also, noone is assimilated forcefully. Illegal immigrants from the time of Soviet Union are allowed to naturalize. Naturalized citizens are allowed to vote, to become almost any official position (I have to check about Presidential chair, though; I kinda remember that you had to had Estonian citizenship by birth for that). De jure, they have born to either a nonexistant and illegal country or predecessor of Russia (see the second point), in which case Russia should deal with "stateless persons" who really are their citizens.

Andres Sehr said...

They are different. SS is a criminal organization, condemned in Nurnberg. Belonging to it makes person a criminal, no proof needed here. By puting on it's uniform you sign pact with Satan.

This is true for the SS in general but does not apply to the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian).

In the Nuremberg Trials, the Waffen-SS was condemned as part of a criminal organisation, except conscripts, who were exempted from that judgement due to being forcibly mobilised.

The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Estonian)#_note-JWL

cabrero said...

Let's go step-by-step

About SS legions. I can only give you referenses on info in russian. The material there give referenses to german archives and Nurnberg statements.

http://rigaxx.narod.ru/0011.html

http://www.respublika.ru/docs/dip/66/6569.html

Andres Sehr said...

Wikipedia references the Jewish Virtual Library regarding the 20th SS .

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/waffenss.html

Ray D. Noper said...

cabrero, I posted the link to THE PROTOCOL of Nuremberg Trials, not some propagandist references. Take note and think.

cabrero said...

Ok, I admit that my statement, that only by belonging to SS a person was a criminal, was wrong. The exception are conscripts, who were forcibly mobilized.

You can label any Russian-origin historical facts or documents referred as a “propaganda”. If it is so, there is no sense to continue the dispute. However, I don’t have other sources, but they seem credible for me, for soviets got a hold of german archives and give no restrictions on access to most of them.

So, you say that your old fellas were “forcibly mobilized”?

In the wikipedia their division is called “Estnische SS-Freiwilligen-Brigade” – Freiwilligen means volunteer I guess. In the thread I gave you it says it was called this way till may 44. Also it says that this “forcibly mobilized” actively participated in operations outside Estonia, demonstrating extreme violence to civilians.

Still, I didn’t get if read Russian. Here it quotes Nurnberg protocol.

Преступность организации СС в целом была признана Нюрнбергским Международным военным трибуналом, который постановил, что "СС использовалась для целей, которые согласно Уставу являются преступными и включают преследование и истребление евреев, зверства и убийства в концентрационных лагерях, эксцессы, совершавшиеся при управлении оккупированными территориями, проведении в жизнь программы использования рабского труда, жестокое обращение с военнопленными и их убийства. Рассматривая вопрос об СС, Трибунал включает сюда всех лиц, которые были официально приняты в члены СС, включая членов "общих СС", войск СС ("Ваффен-СС"), соединений СС "Мертвая голова" и членов любого рода полицейских служб, которые были членами СС"… "Трибунал объявляет преступной согласно определению Устава группу, состоящую из лиц, которые были официально приняты в члены СС, были членами этой организации или оставались ее членами, зная, что эта организация используется для совершения действий, определяемых преступными в соответствии со статьей 6 Устава. Преступная деятельность была широко известна членам организации для того, чтобы оправдать признание СС преступной организацией". Более того, Трибунал установил, что "из статьи 10 Устава явствует, что решение о признании преступного характера обвиняемой организации является окончательным и не может подвергаться оспариванию на любом последующем процессе по делу отдельных членов организаций". И, как ясно следует из приговора, эстонский легион СС также признан преступным, т.к. Трибунал включил в СС членов "Ваффен-СС" и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что "невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности". Отдельно Трибунал "отметил" деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что "дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…" Нюрнбергский процесс. Сборник документов в 8 томах., т.8. Москва, Юридическая литература, 1997 г., с.652

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Yes, go on, find this passage:
исключая, однако, тех лиц, которые были призваны в данную организацию государственными органами, причем таким образом, что они не имели права выбора, а также тех лиц, которые не совершали подобных преступлений.

cabrero said...

И, как ясно следует из приговора, эстонский легион СС также признан преступным, т.к. Трибунал включил в СС членов "Ваффен-СС" и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что "невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности". Отдельно Трибунал "отметил" деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что "дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…"

So this makes Estonian SS legion a full part of SS and a criminal organization.

I guess those who were

призваны в данную организацию государственными органами, причем таким образом, что они не имели права выбора, а также...не совершали подобных преступлений.

And who were in the same time not involved in

преследование и истребление евреев, зверства и убийства в концентрационных лагерях, эксцессы, совершавшиеся при управлении оккупированными территориями, проведении в жизнь программы использования рабского труда, жестокое обращение с военнопленными и их убийства.

- counted quiet a small number.

So, I guess that is the only category of SS legion sodiers your government honours, right?

cabrero said...

2 Andres and Ray D
In case if you don’t read the language of occupants and sincerely believe that 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Estnische Nr. 1) appeared from nowhere formed by conscripts forcibly dragged into it. I’ll compile it’s glorious history from the links you provided.
Himmler was allowed to create his new formations, but they were to be commanded by German officers and NCOs. Beginning in 1942-43, several new formations were formed from Latvians, Estonians, Ukrainians and even Bosnians. The Reichsführer had sidestepped the race laws by ordering that Waffen-SS units formed with men from non-Aryan backgrounds were to be designated division der SS (or Division of the SS) rather than SS Division. The wearing of the SS runes on the collar was forbidden, with several of these formations wearing a national insignia instead.
Towards the end of 1943, it became apparent that numbers of volunteer recruits were inadequate to meet the needs of the German military, so conscription was introduced. The Estonian 20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1) is an example of such a conscript formation, which proved to be outstanding soldiers with an unblemished record.

The Waffen-SS also maintained several "Foreign Legions" made up of personnel from conquered territories and countries allied to Germany. The majority of such personnel wore distinctive a national collar patch and preceded their SS rank titles with the prefix Waffen instead of SS. The racial restrictions were relaxed for these soldiers to the extent that Ukrainian Slavs, Albanians from Kosovo, and Turkic Tatars' units were recruited. The latter units also sometimes contained a minority of Karaite Jews, whom the Nazis regarded as racially ambiguous. The Ukrainians and the Tatars had both suffered persecution under Stalin and their motive appeared to be hatred of Communism rather than belief in National Socialism. The Kosovo Albanians were likely motivated by the chance to exterminate Serbians. One year of Soviet occupation of Baltic countries at the beginning of the Second World War produced enough volunteers to form Estonian and Latvian SS formations.

So it’s core was always formed by volunteers. It was only changing names, re-forcing itself by conscripts, but it always remained a criminal Waffen SS formation. And it was not Estonian-whatever-SS legion excepted from condemnation, but single people who were forcibly drafted and in the same time commited no crimes.

rusak said...

If Estonian was an apartheid state, Russians would need special passes to visit Estonian towns and wouldn't be allowed to intermarry with Estonians. There's only been one 'apartheid' state (apartheid is an Afrikaans word, afterall).

Let’s see what good ol’ Webster has to say about this:

Main Entry: apart·heid
Pronunciation: &-'pär-"tAt, -"tIt
Function: noun
Etymology: Afrikaans, from apart apart + -heid -hood
1 : racial segregation; specifically : a former policy of segregation and political and economic discrimination against non-European groups in the Republic of South Africa
2 : SEPARATION, SEGREGATION <cultural apartheid> <gender apartheid>

Clearly, the word does not have to refer to the specific South African example. Oh no, rusak is right again.

Your measure of what makes an apartheid state is how many government positions are held by ethnic Russians?

Are you saying that in an apartheid state ethnic Russians would hold many government positions or what?

In Germany, 19 percent of the population is foreign born. Yet not one of Merkel's 15 ministers is a minority.

Wrong again. One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.

In this year's Riigikogu there are at least eight (out of 101) members that are ethnic Russians. 15 percent of citizens (in 2006) spoke Russian as their first language.

No, there aren’t. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers are not the same thing. There are 3 ethnic Russian names out of 101 in the Estonian parliament. If you think we are going to give this situation even the slightest hint of “approval” you must be out of your mind.

But here's another case of inequality in Estonia. Estonia is 55 percent female, yet only 22 Riigikogu seats are held by women. I guess Estonia must not only be an apartheid state, but also a patriarchy where women are systematically denied representation. Wouldn't you agree?

What kind of argumentation is this? It doesn't refute what I said at all. The underrepresentation of women in government all of over the world must be considered in the context of thousands of years of human history. The situation with Russians in Estonia is not comparable and you know it.

It wasn't exactly the government's fault their police were assaulted with rocks and bottled for hours on end, resulting in broken limbs and various other injuries.

Yes it was the government’s fault. The government created and conducted the entire situation.

But look at how ridiculous this whole situation is. This is a statue we are talking about. The government moved a statue and it resulted in two nights of looting and untold injuries. That's disturbing.

No, no, it’s not! It’s not just about a statue. This is what you either don’t understand or do understand but don’t want to admit. It’s not about some statue, it’s about what the statue came to represent. The statue basically came to symbolize the situation of the Russian minority in Estonia. They didn’t destroy the statue, just like they can’t physically destroy the Russian minority. So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind. The Russian minority was already "disaffected" before this whole episode occurred. Once again the Estonian government chose to completely disregard the thoughts and feelings of the Russian minority. Actually, the Est nationalists pushed this through specifically to offend the Russian minority, to say something like "We're in charge here, and you ain't shit!" Then they want to act surprised about what happened. In reality, you disregard and disrespect 30% of the population at your peril, that shouldn't have to be explained.

Wrong. History is full of terrible things. The reason they had to move it -- and failed quite miserably to make clear -- is that there were 13 people buried under a sidewalk in a place where nationalists of all varieties came to stir up society.

Since they moved it, nobody has vandalized the Bronze Soldier. Had it stayed there, people would still be dumping red paint on it every fortnight.


They didn’t have to move it. They could have moved the people buried under the sidewalk and left the statue. Why didn’t they go after the people dumping paint on it?

Estonia is part of the West.

In your dreams, pal.

So far all their plans have been carried out as previously announced. Idiotic politicking aside -- the intention was always to move the whole thing to a military cemetery. What do you think they were going to do with the bodies? Dump them in the River Narva?

They made a point of emphasizing how “nice and dignified” the reburial/relocation was. Occupiers, bandits, marauders, rapists etc shouldn’t be buried like that. They did this crap to try to look like “good guys” for the West.

You are the only one making such demands, Rusak. There is no political party in Estonia saying, 'hey, can't we have the finance ministry?'

So far there hasn't been an Ida-Virumaa bloc emerging in Estonian politics, maybe only through Keskerakond. I not sure though that if they won the election they might consider affirmative action for Estonian minsitries.

I am not suggesting affirmative action. A responsible state doesn’t need affirmative action for minorities to have representation in government. If the minorities are not openly considered second-class citizens, their “share” won’t be ignored.

Actually a good chunk of the rioters were ethnic Estonians. I think that everybody hated them after they went apeshit and looted stores, set cars on fire, and basically acted like assholes.

We were talking about the actions of the media here. The Estonian media immediately blamed the murder on “fellow looters” without any evidence. They tried to play it like “Uh-huh, you see, these moronic drunken Russian looters killed one of their own in a frenzy of looting. Meanwhile, we the Good Ests kindly moved the statue to a better place, is all…” They used the murder of Ganin to really try to make the rioters look like the scum of the earth. If as they claimed, Ganin was killed by “fellow looters” then of course it really does make the rioters look very bad. If, however, Ganin was killed by a group of Ests, that radically changes the complexion of things – maybe the Good Ests aren’t quite as Good as they’d like to claim they are, maybe a lot of things they claim aren’t really true. And during all this, the Estonian media was sounding its indignation at the Russian media for claiming that Ganin was killed by Estonian police.

I am glad I wasn't living in Tallinn at the time. If my little kids were woken up by the sound of marauding drunken youth chanting 'CCCP Forever' and throwing rocks I would have been extremely pissed off. I am impressed with the extent that the Estonian police (many of them also ethnic Russians) held their cool. If that had happened in Los Angeles (as it did in 1992) things would have gone down far worse.

Yeah, I’m sure all those Russian scoundrels would be terrified of you there, tough guy.

cabrero said...

And the last thing that crossed my mind.

If you are talking about a draft, organized by Est. gov. to german army, it means that de-facto Estonia took the side of Germany, and was it's ally.

Ray D. Noper said...

You see, cabrero, Estonia was occupied almost all WW2. Estonian government couldn't organize a draft, basically the Estonian government had already gone to exile... Estonian official stance wast to stay neutral, which in reality was unsuccessful - aggressors, who had previously made pact and divided Europe between them, went to war with each other; Estonia was left between Scylla and Charybdis... Between hammer and hammer - both sides were on the quest of world domination.

Giustino said...

Clearly, the word does not have to refer to the specific South African example. Oh no, rusak is right again.

There's only been one apartheid state, Rusak.

One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.

All were born in Germany, unlike 19 percent of the population. A clear sign of nativist discrimination.

No, there aren’t. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers are not the same thing. There are 3 ethnic Russian names out of 101 in the Estonian parliament.

Eldar Efendijev, Igor Gräzin, Valeri Korb, Aleksei Lotman, Inara Luigas, Tatjana Muravjova, Nelli Privalova, Olga Sõtnik, Vladimir Velman.

Like I said, Estonian is a nationality, not an ethncity. It's hard to tell who is what. My wife, technically also has Russian blood. Her great-grandfather was from Vjatka. Thankfully, Estonia's apartheid rules have not excluded him and his descendents from gaining citizenship as they were citizens in 1940.

If you think we are going to give this situation even the slightest hint of “approval” you must be out of your mind.

Who do you claim to represent? Are you a politician? You only represent yourself.

The situation with Russians in Estonia is not comparable and you know it.

Yes, they've had even less time to build up enough power to gain a proportion of representation in relation to their numbers.

The statue basically came to symbolize the situation of the Russian minority in Estonia.

Nobody in the government said that. That's your interpretation.

They didn’t destroy the statue, just like they can’t physically destroy the Russian minority. So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind.

That soldier was actually modeled on an Estonian. My interpretation is that it was a classic battle over public space. There are more Estonians now in Tallinn, and so that situation came to a head over a statue in a prominent square.

Would you have a statue to the army that abetted the NKVD officers that shot your prime minister in the back of the head? Next to the national library? No you wouldn't. Denmark wouldn't. Norway wouldn't. Finland certainly wouldn't. No Northern European country would legitimize a foreign military occupation that way.

Unfortunately it played out the way it did, but then again, the statue is in one piece and it is next to other Estonian war memorials in a military cemetery.

In fact, I don't seem to recall any other big war memorials in Tallinn. I guess we aren't that militaristic of a country.

In reality, you disregard and disrespect 30% of the population at your peril, that shouldn't have to be explained.

I don't disrespect anybody, nor do the clerks who answer all questions in Russian to Russian patrons in my town, where Russians are only 15 percent of the population.

There's more than one party in the Estonian government and not everybody agrees with what the government does.

But we do have a democracy and the ability to be flexible when need be.

If this was truly the huge mistake you say it is, then Andrus Ansip's government might not last as long as he wants.

His party, though, currently has a 43 percent approval rating, 20 points ahead of any other party. If I was running your country, I might try and foster a debate over its future. I disagree with the idea that there's no real democratic discourse in Russia, but there is obviously little I can do.

They didn’t have to move it. They could have moved the people buried under the sidewalk and left the statue. Why didn’t they go after the people dumping paint on it?

Who cares? I really don't care. I walked past that, let's face it, anachronism of a statue almost everyday and never noticed it. The government moved a statue. That's what it means to me. World War II ended 62 years ago. It's over. I honestly don't think about it that much for it matters preciously little in my day-to-day life.

The map of Europe today looks most like the one of 1920. It seems that the 'peace' of 1945 was never built to last.

In your dreams, pal.

Estonia is part of the West.

They made a point of emphasizing how “nice and dignified” the reburial/relocation was.

They're politicians.

Occupiers, bandits, marauders, rapists etc shouldn’t be buried like that. They did this crap to try to look like “good guys” for the West.

Estonia is part of the West. Even during the 200 years of tsarist rule, the language of commerce and education was German. The church was evangelical Lutheran. Just because you don't like Estonia, doesn't mean that it isn't part of Europe.

Estonians have handled things better than, say, the Irish in Northern Ireland. That's another post-colonial situation right there that's had far less pretty results.

If, however, Ganin was killed by a group of Ests, that radically changes the complexion of things – maybe the Good Ests aren’t quite as Good as they’d like to claim they are, maybe a lot of things they claim aren’t really true.

They haven't caught the killers. Isn't it weird how hard it is to catch murderers these days? Politkovskaja, Litvinenko. No justice. It's a sad world.

Yeah, I’m sure all those Russian scoundrels would be terrified of you there, tough guy.

They're idiots. I live here too. And look, they are getting off with fines and a slap on the wrist for robbing stores and making off with designer jeans.

Beyond all these feelings of victimization are the fact that we are adults and individuals and there are ways to voice ones disapproval and ways to be a total asshole. They chose the latter, undermining any political influence the riots could have had.

I know this was a nice moment to indulge oneself in the "Estonians are fascists" moment and chant the word like it means something, especially when Russia deports Georgian school children based on nationality.

But Estonia was founded in 1918 and it is managed to scrape by all these years, even in exile. It's a shame that Estonia was under foreign military occupation for 50 years, but I am quite glad that the country is part of the nordic economy. Tallinn certainly looks much better today than it did in 1991, broken windows or not.

Giustino said...

Estonian government couldn't organize a draft, basically the Estonian government had already gone to exile... Estonian official stance wast to stay neutral, which in reality was unsuccessful

We have to see it from a human angle. All pre-war heads of state were systematically exterminated between 1940 and 1941. The officers class was executed. Parliamentary members were deported or killed.

Estonia is a small country. To the surviving members of the Estonian government that saw all their friends and relatives -- you know how everyone here is related one way or another -- murdered, the German occupation must have felt like a reprieve from the executioner's block.

So they operated 'under the radar' rather than openly challenging the occupation. They attempted to renegotiate their independence, and failed. And just as the Soviets had their puppets like Vares-Barbarus, the Germans had their puppets like Hjalmar Mae.

It's a gross, regrettable situation to be in.

Mait said...

Estonian government didn't 'order a draft', but instead - with sovok forces closing in - the exile government reccommended the young estonians 'not to resist drafting'.

I do believe that the fact of estonians joining up en masse [i]in the face of impending soviet invasion[/i] quite aptly demonstrates the reason why they joined up.

Nothing is Free said...

I do believe that the fact of estonians joining up en masse [i]in the face of impending soviet invasion[/i] quite aptly demonstrates the reason why they joined up.

Nazi sympathizers?

Ray D. Noper said...

Nazi sympathizers?
No, memories of June Deportations in 1941.
Which raises an interesting question:
Soviet Union also deported >400 Jews from Estonia. Another secret deal with Third Reich ?

Now, some of you tell, that it was about eliminating "resisting elements"... About 75% of those departed were women and children.

Ray D. Noper said...

Oh, and this wasn't an irrational, 'russophobic' fear - 1949 proved that... No reason for "removing resisting elements" then - war was over already...

Well, I have nothing against Russians, but the gene left by Tatar-Mongol rapings in some of them...

Nothing is Free said...

Someone had to defend Europe from the Red Horde. Their sacrafice was not in vain.

Nothing is Free said...

Dear ray d. noper,

Well, I have nothing against Russians, but the gene left by Tatar-Mongol rapings in some of them...

Totally true. Proof is in the picture of the fist-waving knuckle-dragger in the story. Let's face it, there is nothing remotely European about these finno-ugric mongoloids who speak bastardized Polish written in barbarian glyphs (no-one else uses their stupid alphabet, BTW), and stole Ukrainian history.

Alas, these doppelgangers are of no threat to the West anymore. They may squirm and sometimes sting, but with the new corridor sanitaire noose growing ever tighter around russkieland, they provide mere amusement. The Tolkien parallel is striking. The russkies are schemeing in Eastern Europe, but the Balts and the Poles are like the brave little Hobbits. They shall use their power of lycanthropy to penetrate Putin's spy ring and destroy it from within!

Ray D. Noper said...

They shall use their power of lycanthropy to penetrate Putin's spy ring and destroy it from within!
Good god, I want some of what this guy must be smoking !

Anyway, the jokefest is over, sorry, you lost. Better luck next time.

Still, you are right somewhat - Estonian army had already fought with "Red Horde" (your words not mine), and won, by the way. They knew what to expect.

Also, I still think Estonia has to apologize to Russians - in 1920, Estonia had the opportunity to support White Guard who were about to take Petrograd (and hopefully execute Bolsheviks residing there), but Estonia decided for peace treaty instead, some whiteguardians were angry for that as of 1970s... As an Estonian: sorry, guys. It could have been easier for all of us.

Nothing is Free said...

You know the FSB have those nashyists flooding the net. I dunno "ray d. noper" sounds kinda fishy. Are you a russkie or something?

Ray D. Noper said...

I am pretty confused. What does 'russkie' mean ?

My mother was born in Magadan and my father's father was born somewhere near Omsk. Neither was Russian by ethnicity, nor am I.

Now, sovietophiles, one thing interests me: please explain, why did Russia recently deport Georgians ? Why deny foreigners from markets ? Sounds like something a fascist state would do...

Nothing is Free said...

Dear "ray d. noper",

I visited your blog. Some gibberish I could not read, but no barbarian glyphs, thank god. Must be some kind of Baltic tongue. So I gather you were conceived in barbarian captivity. Very well. I have no quarrel with you (but I AM WARNING YOU, IF YOU'RE LYING, I DID NOT STUDY NINJITSU FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS FOR NOTHING YOU KNOW!). Alrighty, I'll just hop over to larussophobe. Maybe she's got something good today, like a plane crash, or the latest TB statistics.

Giustino said...

Must be some kind of Baltic tongue.

Actually it's Finnic, like Finnish, Karelian, and Sami.

Baltic tongues are Latvian and Lithuanian and (the extinct) Prussian.

Jens-Olaf said...

Rusak said:
One of Merkel’s 15 ministers has a clearly Slavic name, Wieczorek-Zeul, minister for economic cooperation and development; and another, de Maizière, head of the federal chancellery, is of French origin.

All of them are Germans and not member of any minority. Offical minorites in Germany are only the Danes and the Sorbians. There was a quarrel about the special minority right for the Danish party in Schleswig-Holstein. This party did not need the 5% hurdle to be elected into parliament.
The third generation of Turkish, a few million, with turkish descendance became not German automatically until recently. And they have no own minority rights. No own schools for them like for Danes for example.

Ray D. Noper said...

Another question:
Why is the governor of Mari El Republic a ethnic Russian when more than half of populations are Maris ?
Also, Mordovia has little to none Mordvin names in administration (Mordvin concertration about the same as Russian concentration in Estonia) ?

It is anyway mighty strange, that noone has answered the Georgian question yet... Waiting for official statement about all questioners being nazis and so on ?

Oh, and again, sorry guys about signing Tartu peace so early. Soviet Union was the worst thing that could happen to Russia...

Jens-Olaf said...

Rusak said:
'So they moved the troublesome minority’s statue to a cemetery, out of sight, out of mind, just like they’ve tried to sweep the troublesome minority itself under a rug, out of sight, out of mind.'

It is one of the main military cemeterys of Estonia and its military units. The Bronze Soldier is placed in the center now. Among other buried Soviet soldiers.
One of the Estonian Kaitseliit commanders has his grave about 50m away.

Nothing is Free said...

Ah, I'm back from catching up on La Russophobe. Sadly no unairworthy Tupolevski plane crashes today. But an excellent expose of that ultimate sell-out, Russkie nationalist and false dissident Solzhenitsyn. Now, to the Georgian question.

You see, Georgians are a small proud people. The russkies hate their freedom. Furthermore, since the dawn of time (antiquity) the barbarians to the north would lead campaigns of extermination of the proud Georgian people. This has created certain evolutionary pressures on the Georgian male. Only a certain hyper-virile type would have any chance of repopulating their motherland after another devastating raid. So you see, the hairless Russkies hate the macho hirsute Georgians with their allegedly very large genitalia (I don't believe it). Just compare the alpha male head of Georgian state to that karelian pelmeni-munching squirt Putin (the Russkies even stole their national dish from the asiatics). The mongol-descendant drunkards cannot stand the fact that for a hairy, muscular Georgian man the favourite thing is not vodka + pel'meni + synthesiser pop music, but singing folk songs, drinking good wine with his mates, and traditional (naked) wrestling at the drop of a hat (oil up first)

Jens-Olaf said...

And I should add though I have written it somewhere else already. The first widow I've met on the military cemetary where the Bronze statue was moved was an Estonian woman. Her husband had served in the Soviet Army. She said it's a better place where she can relief and mourn, not like in the center it was before.

cabrero said...

I guess we are clear about Estonian SS legion?

I guess you agree, that according to Nurnberg protocol definitions all who volunteerly joined SS Estonian legion or those who were drafted but, still, commited crimes are war criminals?

Ray D. Noper said...

cabrero,

I never argued. My only point was, that by the Nuremberg protocols, drafted SS soldiers (Baltic legions specifically pointed out) were not automatically war criminals. There were not so few of them - basically the "volunteer legion" was the choice between "volunteering" and being "deserter", that was acknowledged by the international court.

So, if you also acknowledge it, we come to the point, that
* they were drafted,
* ergo they weren't nazis
* ergo they weren't war criminals
* ergo honoring them does not make people nazi symphatizers.

I won't deny that there a few nazi sympatizers in Estonia, just as they are in almost every country... But it takes a little more than honoring a simple guy who had choice of being dead and being, well, dead, and who, against his own choice, died. What does it matter which aggressor provided his uniform and equipment ?

Andres Sehr said...

2 cabrero:

I'm clear about the 20th, you don't appear to be.

The US Displaced Persons Commission in September 1950 declared that:
The Baltic Waffen SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the there were some bad things done by some members of the Estonian Legion but there were not in the same league as most of the SS, they did not subscribe to the Nazi ideology. When Estonia honors members of the 20th legion they do so the same way Russia honors members of the Red Army, which also committed atrocities during WW2.

Nothing is Free said...

Ain't no such thing as a war-crime against a commie. Better dead than red. Hail the Baltic Waffen SS for their struggle for the Western civilization against the Red Horde!

cabrero said...

2 Ray D

Yes I agree with you. But how can the persons, matching your criterias, can be freedom or whatever fighters if they didn’t even want to fight and were drafted forcibly? However thats not the issue.

What I blame your government for is that it never condemned Estonian SS legion as a criminal part of SS, never attempted to distinct criminals from non-criminals. It praises ex SS-servicemen only by the criteria of fighting against bolshevism and ignoring whatever crimes this persons were responsible for.


2 Andres

I disagree with you because the desicions of US-whatever comission have no exterritorial power. Neither they can surpass definitions made by Nurnberg trial which clearly stated:

“Трибунал включил в СС членов "Ваффен-СС" и членов любого рода полицейских служб, подчеркнув, что "невозможно выделить какую-либо часть СС, которая не принимала бы участия в этой преступной деятельности". Отдельно Трибунал "отметил" деятельность дивизий СС, указав, что "дивизии войск СС ответственны за множество убийств и зверств на оккупированных территориях…"

This paradox is mainly for lawyers. However I think that US desicion was politicaly motivated for it was a Col War period. They had to choose: turn the surrendered persons to SU or not. The second could not be an option.


And you are wrong saying that were somewhat different from the rest of SS. According to the SS code all the memebers had to share ideology. Estonian SS legion actively participated in war crimes and along with other “national” legions gained fame of extreme cruelty towards POW and civillians. And this were not “Some” bad things, there was a lot. They were involved in “punishment” (карательные) operations in Belorussia, Russia, Poland and Ukraine burning villages, slaughtering people.

Сразу же после немецкой оккупации территории ЭССР там начались массовые убийства гражданского населения, особенно русских и евреев. Бригаденфюрер СС В.Шталекер докладывал 25 октября 1941 г. руководителю РСХА Р.Гейдриху: "В Эстонии благодаря сравнительно небольшому количеству евреев не представлялось возможным провоцировать погромы... Большая часть тех 4500 евреев, которые жили в Эстонии в начале наступления на Востоке, бежала вместе с отступающими войсками Красной Армии. Осталось около 2000 человек. В одном Таллине жило около 1000 евреев. Арест всех евреев мужского пола в возрасте старше 16 лет был почти закончен. Все они были казнены "частями самообороны" под руководством "айнзатцкомманды 1А". (Мартинсон Э. Слуги свастики. Таллин, 1962 г., с.74).

26-29 сентября 1941 г. эстонские "силы самообороны" уничтожили 440 арестованных ими евреев (по другим данным - 474). (Hilberg R. Tater, Opfer, Zuschauer. Die Vernichtung der Juden 1933-145. Frankfurt/ Main. 1992. s.115). Имущество казненных частично передавалось немцами в распоряжение "сил самообороны".

Помимо евреев эстонская полиция и "силы самообороны" ликвидировали сторонников советской власти (к которым зачастую причислялись все русские жители некоторых городов и сел), эстонцев - членов левых организаций (в т.ч. социал-демократов), а также тех крестьян, кто получил землю в результате аграрных реформ в Эстонии в 20-е годы и в 1940 г. (т.н. новоземельцы). После занятия вермахтом Тарту летом-осенью 1941 г. в противотанковом рву под городом (в населенном пункте Лемматси) отрядами "Омакайтсе" было убито более 12 тысяч мирных жителей и советских военнопленных.

После захвата немецко-фашисткими войсками Таллина эстонская политическая полиция к 19 декабря 1941 г. арестовала только в столице Эстонии и ее окрестностях 4365 человек. Узников Таллинской тюрьмы расстреливали по спискам, которые утверждал начальник политической полиции Э.Викс, заслуживший прозвище "эстонского Эйхмана" (до 1940 г. он был комиссаром полити-ческой полиции Эстонии в Куресааре). Так, например, 74-летняя эстонка Мийна Куузик была расстреляна в декабре 1941 г. по следующему обвинению: "Мийна Куузик - эстонка, была сторонницей советского государственного порядка, полагала, что она с удовольствием сделала бы что-нибудь хорошее в пользу Советского Союза, если бы не была столь стара".

В октябре 1942 г. списком были расстреляны как "неполноценный расовый элемент" 243 цыгана, содержавшихся в концлагере Харку. Э.Викс с гордостью докладывал М.Зандбергеру, что только 16 апреля 1942 г. из Центральной Таллинской тюрьмы было вывезено на расстрел 67 человек.

После так называемой "конференции Ваннзее" в Берлине в январе 1942 г., на которой было принято решение о полном уничтожении евреев в Европе, в эстонской политической полиции по образцу гестапо был образован специальный отдел Б-IV под руководством Ю.Эннока, занимавшийся "окончательным решением еврейского вопроса", что привело к тому, что уже в феврале 1942 г. В.Шталекер рапортовал в Берлин о выполнении задачи.

После решения "еврейского вопроса" в Эстонии эстонские полицейские части принимали участие в ликвидации евреев, привозимых в страну из стран Европы, в основном из Чехии. Например, 5 сентября 1942 г. в местечко Каасику прибыл эшелон с 1000 евреев из гетто Терезиенштадт. Все они были расстреляны сотрудниками эстонской политической полиции. Через неделю такая же судьба постигла и евреев, доставленных из Берлина.

Как отмечается в материалах Международной комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности под эгидой Президента Эстонии, эстонские полицейские также принимали непосредственное участие в сопровождении перевозимых из Вильнюса евреев в концентрационные лагеря в Эстонии, охране аналогичных лагерей в Вайваре, Тарту, Ягала, Таллине, лагерей для советских военнопленных, в которых совершались многочисленные казни заключенных, охране перевалочного лагеря для евреев в Избике (Польша), где было умерщвлено значительное количество евреев, а также еврейских гетто в Лодзи, Пшемышле, Жешуве и Тарнополе.

В 1943-1944 гг. в концлагерь Клоога (охрану которого нес 287-й эстонский полицейский батальон) были доставлены несколько тысяч евреев из гетто Каунаса, Вильнюса, концлагеря Саласпилс в Латвии и Трансильвании, которых впоследствии использовали на торфоразработках. Когда в сентябре 1944 г. части Красной Армии неожиданно для вермахта прорвались почти к самому лагерю, эстонские полицейские, как отмечается в отчете Международной комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности при Президенте Эстонии, принимали непосредственное участие в расстреле 2000 узников. Буквально за несколько дней до освобождения Таллина под руководством Э.Викса было расстреляно около тысячи узников Центральной тюрьмы.

Что касается эстонских регулярных частей для участия в военных действиях на стороне гитлеровской Германии, то начало их формированию было положено 25 августа 1941 г., когда в соответствии с приказом командующего группой армий "Север" генерал-фельдмаршала фон Лееба было разрешено принимать прибалтов на службу в вермахт и создавать из них особые команды и добровольческие батальоны для антипартизанской борьбы. (Hoffman J. Die Ostlegionen 1941-1943. Freiburg, 1976, s.18-19). В этой связи командующим 18-й армией генерал-полковником Кюхлером из разрозненных отрядов "Омакайтсе" на добровольной основе (с заключением контракта на 1 год) было сформировано 6 эстонских охранных отрядов (№№181-186). В конце того же года все шесть подразделений были переформированы в три восточных батальона (№№645, 659 и 660-й) и одну восточную роту (№657-я).

В дополнение к вышеназванным частям для охранной службы и борьбы с партизанским движением в тылу группы армий "Север" с сентября 1941 г. немецкое командование начало формирование эстонских батальонов вспомогательной полиции ("шума"). Всего за время войны в Эстонии было сформировано 26 батальонов "шума", получивших номера с 29-го по 45-й, 50-й и с 286-го по 293-й. В отличие от аналогичных частей на территории Украины и Белоруссии, в которых весь командный состав состоял из немцев, в эстонских полицейских батальонах, укомплектованных национальными кадрами, был только один немецкий офицер-наблюдатель. Показателем особого доверия немцев к эстонским полицейским батальонам было и то обстоятельство, что там были введены воинские звания вермахта. На 1 октября 1942 г. все полицейские силы Эстонии составляли 10,4 тысяч человек, к которым был прикомандирован 591 немец.

Полицейские и восточные батальоны использовались преимущественно для проведения карательных акций против гражданского населения, борьбы с партизанским движением и охраны концентрационных лагерей. Так, 36-й эстонский полицейский батальон принимал участие в массовом расстреле евреев в белорусском городе Новогрудки 7 августа 1942 г., что подтверждается материалами Центра Симона Визенталя (Зурофф: эстонцы участвовали в казнях евреев // BNS/Interfax, 2002 г., 7 августа) и выводами по данной теме действующей под эгидой Президента Эстонии международной Комиссии по расследованию преступлений против человечности (Зурофф рекомендует Пихлю уйти в отставку // BNS// Interfax, 2002 г., 25 июля), а также нес охрану лагерей военнопленных, работавших на угольных шахтах Сталино и Макеевка. В Псковской области против партизанского движения боролись 37-й и 40-й батальоны, аналогичные задачи в районе Луга-Псков-Гдов выполнял 38-й батальон. 286-й батальон участвовал в карательных операциях в Восточной Пруссии и Белоруссии. 288-й батальон применялся для ликвидации т.н. "Партизанской республики Ронсона". Eesti vabadusvoitlejad Teises maailmasjas // Koostja A.Jurs - Tallinn, 1997. р. 146-155 (Эстонские борцы за свободу во Второй мировой войне) // сост. А.Юрс 658-й восточный батальон под командованием А.Ребане проводил карательные операции против мирного населения в районе г. Кингисепп и дер. Керстово (Ленинградская область), совершал зверские убийства и в целях устрашения партизан, сжигал целые деревни (Бабино, Хабалово, Чигиринка и др.) Из показаний свидетелей - очевидцев и участников карательных операций известно, что в ноябре 1941 г. подразделением А.Ребане в дер. Чигиринка были задержаны 5-6 советских партизан. Во время операции деревня была сожжена, при этом сгорели 3 жителя деревни. РГВА. Ф.451п. Оп.5 Д.149. Л.144-145

Карательные функции выполнял и сформированный в октябре 1941 г. специальный батальон "Остланд". РГВА. Ф.451п. Оп.5. Д.149.Л. 144-145 По данным исследователя Р.Михаэлиса, ссылающегося на документ Главного управления СС №8699/42, это подразделение размещалось в 1941 - 1942 гг. на территории УССР и участвовало в расстреле евреев. В рапорте от 11 мая 1942 г. содержатся сведения о расстреле 1000 евреев в Минске, 15 июля 1942 г. - о расстреле там же еще 1000 жителей еврейской национальности, 27 июня 1942 г. - о ликвидации 4000 евреев в окрестностях Слонима, 28 июля 1942 г. - об уничтожении 6000 евреев в Минске. Michaelis R. Eestlased Waffen-SS-is 20 (1 Eesti) -SS relvagrenaderidiviis. Tallinn: Olion, 2001. р. 32 В ноябре 1942 г. батальон "Остланд" вместе с тремя немецкими полицейскими батальонами и артиллерийским полком под командованием генерала Хальтермана, принимал участие в операции по борьбе с партизанами в районе г. Овруч, где в результате совместных действий карателями было сожжено более 50 деревень и расстреляно свыше 1500 жителей. В одной из деревень за убийство лейтенанта СС Тырна были заживо сожжены 40 местных жителей. ЦА ФСБ. Ф.25. Оп. 5 Д.149. Л.249-258


So there was a lot of bastards...

What was left of them was later included in what SS legion finally become.

Giustino said...

What I blame your government for is that it never condemned Estonian SS legion as a criminal part of SS, never attempted to distinct criminals from non-criminals.

I think that the Soviets did a pretty good job of taking care of Estonian war criminals in the 1950s and 1960s.

I am not too fond of this SS fixation either. I can only guess it is because they are dying out, like the Red Army vets, everyday, so there is renewed interest in the conflicts of their youth.

Estonia's greatest heroes remain the gents of 1918, like this Estonian fellow, who Rusak will notice lacks an ethnic Estonian name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Kuperjanov

Andres Sehr said...

So there was a lot of bastards...

Agreed.

cabrero said...

So I guess that I somehow showed you that our gov. disagreement with estonian official gestures towards conmemoration of SS veterans has a very serious and justified basis.

And in order to step to the occupation issue I would like to know what Estonia existed in 1944 - succesor of the first Estonian republic, some other, second, Estonia or a newly annexed part of German territory?

And what Estonia appeared in 1991 - succesor of the first, 1918, Estonia, succesor of 1944 second Estonia, or some third, "new", Estonia?

Giustino said...

And in order to step to the occupation issue I would like to know what Estonia existed in 1944 - succesor of the first Estonian republic, some other, second, Estonia or a newly annexed part of German territory?

Estonia was occupied Nazi territory for most of 1944. The republic briefly operated in September but then was reoccupied by the Soviets as they chased the Nazis to Berlin (and grabbed land along the way).

Estonia today is the same country that was founded in 1918. Same flag, sam ecoat of arms, same national anthem.

It has diplomatic relations with most countries (including Russia) that go back to 1920. For example, this year is the 85 anniversary of relations with Iceland, the US, and a host of other countries that recognized Estonia in 1922, even before Britain became the first country to recognize the USSR in 1924.

Andres Sehr said...

The Republic of Estonia established in 1918 never ceased to exist and continues to this day.

There's a great law review about this issue in the Nordic Law Review (Nordic!):

http://www.springerlink.com/content/3e5hl9ux79vj213x/

I'd send you my copy to read but I only have 1 and worry I might not get it back. :)

Giustino said...

Andres,

I think you just earned yourself a Marjamaa cross.

Ray D. Noper said...

cabrero, do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?
So far it's on par with "but you are burning negroes"...

But still, bolshevism was worth fighting for... After all, bolsheviks and nazis had divided the European sovereign states to the "spheres of power"... Sovereign states, that, as people have shown you here before, existed even before Soviet Union was created or recognized...

cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cabrero said...

do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?

- And you? Whatever information you can get it is mainly the Soviet archives left on Estonian territory. So, you can either accept it as true or reject it as false.

rusak said...

There's only been one apartheid state, Rusak.

The level of discrimination in Estonia amounts to apartheid, it might as well be apartheid.

All were born in Germany, unlike 19 percent of the population. A clear sign of nativist discrimination.

Wrong again. The 19% figure is for immigrants AND their descendants, AND many of these immigrants were ethnic Germans from the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe. 91% of Germany’s population is ethnic German according to the last census.

Like I said, Estonian is a nationality, not an ethncity.

What the hell is this? You said “ethnic Russians” – now you’re talking about something else.

Who do you claim to represent? Are you a politician? You only represent yourself.

In other words one has to be a politician to represent anyone? No, I’m not a politician, but I represent a lot more people than all the Krishtafoviches in the world put together.

Yes, they've had even less time to build up enough power to gain a proportion of representation in relation to their numbers.

“Time to build up power”? They wouldn’t have to build up anything if it wasn’t for the discriminatory policies that started about 15 years ago in the first place.

Nobody in the government said that. That's your interpretation.

What difference does it make if nobody in the government “said that”? Some things don’t have to be said like that. If blacks in the US get upset at something, they tend to think in terms of their history and the problems of their current situation as much, or rather more, than about the specifics of a particular case. Most people recognize this reality. If you’re a reasonable person you don’t need some clown to get up on a soapbox and explicitly state it for you. The LA riots were not about the person of Rodney King and the riots in Estonia were not about some hunk of bronze or even the bodies buried under it.

That soldier was actually modeled on an Estonian.

You think I didn’t know that?

My interpretation is that it was a classic battle over public space. There are more Estonians now in Tallinn, and so that situation came to a head over a statue in a prominent square.

First it was “they had to do it because...” –- now it’s this. Do you see how your position is dancing all over the place?

Would you have a statue to the army that abetted the NKVD officers that shot your prime minister in the back of the head? Next to the national library? No you wouldn't. Denmark wouldn't. Norway wouldn't. Finland certainly wouldn't. No Northern European country would legitimize a foreign military occupation that way.

They didn’t seem to mind it too much for 15 years. So when you bring up all this, my answer is that the Ests didn’t care until the nationalists made this an issue.

I don't disrespect anybody, nor do the clerks who answer all questions in Russian to Russian patrons in my town, where Russians are only 15 percent of the population.

Don’t pretend you don’t know English. You see that I was talking about the Estonian government, then the next sentence says “you” – it obviously didn’t mean you, giustino.

If this was truly the huge mistake you say it is, then Andrus Ansip's government might not last as long as he wants.

I think it was a mistake but the huge mistake is the background situation.

Who cares? I really don't care.

You’re writing a lot of responses for someone who really doesn’t care. Ah, but you care about ol’ Eestimaa’s reputation, don’t you? Afraid that dastardly rusak will sully her good name, eh?

The map of Europe today looks most like the one of 1920.

Questionable at best, considering that Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were on the map in 1920.

Estonia is part of the West.

In your dreams.

They're politicians.

Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.

Estonia is part of the West. Even during the 200 years of tsarist rule, the language of commerce and education was German. The church was evangelical Lutheran. Just because you don't like Estonia, doesn't mean that it isn't part of Europe.

What does commerce and education have to do with the Ests? The Ests were slaves of the Germans for 600 years. It wasn’t their commerce and education. (And on a little side note, in 1897, ethnic Russians comprised 17% of the merchant class in Estlyandskaya guberniya and 18% in Liflyandskaya guberniya) The Ests got their own state in 1920 and it was independent for only about 20 years. Ah, but now they’re proud Europeans! The German language and Protestant religion don’t make the Ests any more “Westerners” than the English language and Protestant religion make the “African Americans” English.

They haven't caught the killers. Isn't it weird how hard it is to catch murderers these days? Politkovskaja, Litvinenko. No justice. It's a sad world.

Do you have anything to say that is actually pertinent to the point that I was making? The way the Estonian media handled the situation, you have nothing to say about that, I guess.

Beyond all these feelings of victimization are the fact that we are adults and individuals and there are ways to voice ones disapproval and ways to be a total asshole. They chose the latter, undermining any political influence the riots could have had.

There are many ways to gain political influence. Violence worked in Northern Ireland, for example.

I know this was a nice moment to indulge oneself in the "Estonians are fascists" moment and chant the word like it means something, especially when Russia deports Georgian school children based on nationality.

Stop making things up. No Georgian school children were deported based on nationality. Several thousand illegal immigrants were deported.

Nothing is Free said...

I don't understand why Etonians are so shy about their the fine SS history. They were defending the Western Civilization from the Red Horde. That is nothing to be ashamed of! You can call them Nazis, but so what? It's just a word.

After all even the Americans realized after the war that they "killed the wrong pig". Unfortunately, the red propaganda machine was in full swing by then, and the fine German people and their adjutants had already been slandered and villified. But many defnders of Europe were thankfully rehabilitated: Wernher von Braun, creator of the mighty V-1 and V2, who later made sure that the Nordic race is the first to the moon; Erich Von Manstein, destroyer of countless mongoloid bolshevik POWs, who went on to become de facto chief of staff of the Bundeswehr, are just two such outstanding individuals. There were many, many others. The Esstonian SS veterans should wear their insignia with pride! (God, I hate those russkiess so much!)

rusak said...

Jens-Olaf,

All of them are Germans and not member of any minority. Offical minorites in Germany are only the Danes and the Sorbians.

What are "Germans"? The names are clearly not German, indicating foreign ancestry. If there were a couple of such "Estonians" in the cabinet of ministers, I think this would be a different discussion.

rusak said...

Why is the governor of Mari El Republic a ethnic Russian when more than half of populations are Maris ?

Actually, the Russians are the largest group in Mariy-El. Try again.

Also, Mordovia has little to none Mordvin names in administration (Mordvin concertration about the same as Russian concentration in Estonia) ?

There are plenty of Mordvins in the administration of Mordovia, including the president. What do you know about Mordvin names? Mordvin names as far as I know are mostly pretty much the same as ethnic Russian names.

Nothing is Free said...

Dear rusak (what a name!),

I think that you should get it through your thick fur-hatted skull the follwing:

1) We (the noble people of the West) are liberal, creative indivuduals, free in ways that you can never be. We get great ideas like, all the time! Something not physcially possible for you. (For example, on antyx.net we are discussing the proper way to partition your wasteland). We drink coffee, chat with our friends online, take our kids to the mall, travel, crank out wicked HTML code on our Apple MacBook Pros.

2) You are mongoloid collectivist byzantian freedom-hating evil-doing savages tilling the earth for oil and diamonds in this age, some other crap in another age, but always with your Morlock heads bowing down.

By default, you are guilty unless proven innocent. The onus (hehe) of proof is always on YOU! The Economist is a very respectable newspaper - the only must-read source of news in this day and age. (It's all I ever read.) What they write is the truth. YOU have to prove otherwise. First, you fetid barbarians must prove that you don't eat your young, then we might listen to you.

Ray D. Noper said...

cabrero,
it is symbolic that you wrote something rational and absolutely right, and then deleted it ? RSS, you know, remembers everything...
You said: "If he willingly shoots a single POW or a civillian, he is a criminal, no matter what was his initial reason"
Yes, that makes most of the Soviet enforcers (KGB, etc) criminals.
And yes, "One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country."

Why the hell did you remove that post ? That was one thing that really made sense ?

Ray D. Noper said...

rusak,

You are right, sorry, had flawed data . Still, I see little Maris in the government of Mari El ? There are more than 40% of them in Mari El Republic, arent there ?

And no, classic Mordvin names aren't the same as ethnic Russian names, that's like saying that Russian names are like Estonian names (which, interestingly, are somewhat true - lots of Russians have taken an Estonian name...)

Now, the question about Georgians...
Every stateless person in Estonia is by definition an illegal immigrant. They have never applied for Estonian citizenship. Estonian state wouldn't deport them, why ?

Giustino said...

The level of discrimination in Estonia amounts to apartheid, it might as well be apartheid.

That's your opinion. One might consider a state that deports school children based on ethnicity to be a fascist state.

What the hell is this? You said “ethnic Russians” – now you’re talking about something else.

The lexicon does need to be tweaked. In this article, they call themselves Narva Venelased.

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070808145831.8lupnwbe&cat=null

Jevgeni Kriina, a 29-year-old student, commented: "I don't like it when we speak about inhabitants of Estonia as Russians and Estonians."

"Here in Narva we Russians have more in common with Estonians than with Russians in Russia."


No, I’m not a politician, but I represent a lot more people than all the Krishtafoviches in the world put together.

Says the random guy on the Internet.

“Time to build up power”? They wouldn’t have to build up anything if it wasn’t for the discriminatory policies that started about 15 years ago in the first place.

Boy, you really are dense aren't you. Estonia was founded in 1918. All of its political institutions evolved from the Estonian awakening and from the first period of independence.

Just because goose-stepping Red Army goons killed most of the Estonian political class and disbanded those institutions, doesn't mean that they died.

Instead they remained underground. When the intelligent and wise Gorbachev decided that the Soviet system was unsustainable in the mid-80s, all those institutions came back.

Ever notice how most of Estonia's most prominent politicians belong to a fraternity founded in Tartu in 1870.

So yeah, it will take a while for reative newcomers to penetrate these institutions and work their way to the top. It will happen though, and I look forward to it.

The LA riots were not about the person of Rodney King and the riots in Estonia were not about some hunk of bronze or even the bodies buried under it.

The LA Riots were about tensions between Los Angeles many ethnic communities -- wealthy whites, poor blacks, and recent transplant Asians.

Ask yourself, did they solve anything? Did conditions for persons of African descent get better in LA after 1992? Or did the gates in Orange County just get higher?

First it was “they had to do it because...” –- now it’s this. Do you see how your position is dancing all over the place?

My position changes because I am a thinking individual, not some cardboard caricature of an evil Estonian nationalist. I mean I'm not even Estonian.

As I think over time new ideas come to mind, like the idea of a conflict over public space. That's my interpretation, as relevant as yours, perhaps more so because I live here and you don't.

They didn’t seem to mind it too much for 15 years. So when you bring up all this, my answer is that the Ests didn’t care until the nationalists made this an issue.

The Estonians started to care when they saw small children brought there with communist symbols on their clothing. No one has problems with old vets. I think that children were being brought into the mess made the choices a bit more stark.

Don’t pretend you don’t know English. You see that I was talking about the Estonian government, then the next sentence says “you” – it obviously didn’t mean you, giustino.

Ah, see in Estonian they have sina (personal) and teie (impersonal) for these distinctions. But since I am not a citizen of this country, and did not elect this government, they can hardly be called "my" government.

My government is led by George W. Bush. Need I say more?

Questionable at best, considering that Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were on the map in 1920.

It certainly doesn't look like the map of 1945. And it doesn't look like the map of 1914 either. What we've learned is that Brest Litovsk and Versailles are among the best 'deals' Europe has had in the past 100 years. They've proved to be the longest lasting.

Woodrow Wilson may have been nuts, but he was obviously nuts in a good way, at least some of the time. Perhaps he consumed some miracle absynthe during his time in Paris.

In your dreams.

You can bait me with the "Estonia is not the West" stuff, but don;t ask me, ask Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt.

When asked about the ideal nordic model he replied:

Finland's education, Estonia's progressive tax policy, Denmark's labour market, Iceland's entrepreneurship, Sweden's management of big companies and Norway's oil.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7880173

Of course the opinion of Sweden doesn't matter. You get to decide who is who.

Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.

I lean towards the Social Dems in Estonia. My wife voted for the Greens. Yet the Reform Party won the most votes and got to form the government.

I disagree with some of the things Reform has floated recently -- like Justice Minister Rein Lang's idea of using identity cards to register comments in forums so he can know who is saying what at what time and where they live.

But Reform was elected and they run the government. In my country, the Republicans won the congressional election in 2002 and presidential election in 2004. I don't agree with their policies, but they won. What else can a citizen in a democracy do?

The Ests were slaves of the Germans for 600 years. It wasn’t their commerce and education.

Is Ireland part of the West, Comrade Rusak? The language (English) isn't theirs. The religion (Roman Catholicism) isn't theirs. They were slaves of English barons for many centuries. What right do they have to associate with the European Union and NATO? What right do the shanty Irish have to be considered Western?

Eamon De Valera, the first president of Ireland was born illegitimately to a house servant in New York. What right did he have to dare to take Ireland from the British ruling class?

There are many ways to gain political influence. Violence worked in Northern Ireland, for example.

So did Estonian victory over the Red Army in 1920.

Stop making things up. No Georgian school children were deported based on nationality. Several thousand illegal immigrants were deported.

All Georgians, all at the same time, some in Russia legally. As 'punishment' for Saakashvili not being your stooge. You guys are pathetic. And you wonder why all your neighbors hate you. :)

Nothing is Free said...

To be part of the West is to:

1) Be white.
2) Not be mongoloid russkie.
3) Speak an indo-european language.
4) Make significant contributions to western culture and civilization.

On all these counts Estonia qualifies. Ruskieland doesn't, sorry.

Nothing is Free said...

Giustion,

Totally true about everyone hating europe's bum cousin. Hating russkies is as easy and natural as breathing. Justification can come later, and there is so much to choose from!

Giustino said...

Politicians with certain goals and ideas, which you apparently don’t want to talk about.

I'd like to add that the decision to move said Bronze Soldier was put to a vote, one that several parties voted against.

One thing I found semi-hopeful was that most of the youths on the street that dared make a political statement (other than making off with free booze, jeans, and women's hygienic products) rightly blamed Andrus AnSSip and not Estonia.

That's because, unlike you, if you live in Russia, Estonia has a functional democracy where if you dislike the politician, you can *blame* him and write nasty graffiti on the wall and post unflattering YouTube videos about him.

It shows that democracy works when people blame the politician and not the process. As a state founded in 1918, Estonia has found that follow the laws -- rather making decisions based on fear or emotion -- are the best remedy for national challenges, even military occupation.

Nothing is Free said...

Giustino,

Once again, totally true. I'd like to see how the putinoids will explain Putin's "emergency" third term next year. Looks like the casus is already brewing in South Caucus.

Jens-Olaf said...

Rusak,

You are asking about Germans and minorities.
I try to keep it simple as possible. If you have a German passport you are German. Minority rights have only the Danes and Sorbians who are Germans. If you are Turkish with German passport you are German. If you are Turkish without German passport you are alien, or 'Ausländer', and then you are non EU citizens and though you are living your entire live in Germany, you have no right to cast your vote even in local elections. But your tax paying is appriciated.

cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cabrero said...

Why the hell did you remove that post ? That was one thing that really made sense ?
For technical reasons, thought of adding smth else, hd no tome and left the txt on another PC.

Here you go...

"do you have any other, non-soviet information about Estonian legions taking part of war crimes ?"

- And you? Whatever documents you can have it is a Soviet heritage too.

Besides that the articles I point partly refer to german documents.

Fighting against bolshevism does not discard whatever war crimes a person commited. If a man volunteerly joins SS he is criminal. If he willingly shoots a single POW or a civillian, he is a criminal, no matter what was his initial reason for him being in SS.

One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country.

A country can not approve and praise what the rest of the world condemns and was fighting against.

When your authorities install a monument with a sodier in SS uniform, wearing SS insignia and decorations and put inscription: "in memory for anti-bolshevik fighters of SS legion" -it means that ALL of them are heroes, not just the "forcibly conscripted" and "war crime clear".

If your gov. is so pissed off with bolshevism, couldn't it install some symbolic monument with no signs of SS, saying smth. like "to all estonians who died fighting against bolshevism"??? No one would oppose that, Russia neither.

The "patriotic" Erna-game you have. What it was back in 1944? - A saboteur group fighting coalition troops, in this case soviet, under german plan and commanded by german officer. How is that presented - like fighting for Estonia. Thus your authorities question the results of WWII.

No, I dont' care about smbd. privately playing a war-RPG, or old people gathering privately. But it has to remain private...

Sorry man, but I think it is sick. And the worse is that new generationn of estonians are growing up with a twisted concept of right and wrong.

BTW, we constantly blame Stalinism, honour its victims, build memorials in their honour all over the country and by no way praise NKVD or Stalin. Twice in 50's and in 89 condemned stalinism and we keep doing that.


"Yes, that makes most of the Soviet enforcers (KGB, etc) criminals.
And yes, "One can not be a criminal for the world and a heroe for one country." "

- not the most. Neither NKVD nor KGB were recognized as criminal organization. Volunteerly fulfilling a duty within their ranks does not make someone a criminal, different from SS. So the ratio of criminals there is the same as forcibly conscripted non-criminals in Estonian SS. Thoe we dont pose NKVD actions as heroic, recognizing its unhuman nature, neither we decorate, conmemorate or build monuments to its officers.

Giustino said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Andres Sehr said...

When your authorities install a monument with a sodier in SS uniform, wearing SS insignia and decorations and put inscription: "in memory for anti-bolshevik fighters of SS legion" -it means that ALL of them are heroes, not just the "forcibly conscripted" and "war crime clear"..

Sorry, for my clarification, which monument are you referring too? I'm not aware of a monument that the Estonian Government erected that says this.

Nothing is Free said...

Estonian SS men were heros. They were fighting for Europe's freedom.

Giustino said...

A country can not approve and praise what the rest of the world condemns and was fighting against.

The USSR was an ally if Nazi Germany until 1941. Together they worked to occupy Poland in September 1939, starting the war.

How exactly did Molotov 'fight against' Nazi German expansion by signing a pact with them to divide up Europe? How could two armies that conquered Poland hold a joint march in Brest and not be allies?

All your memorials say 1941-1945. Yet the war in Europe started in 1939. And it was started by two countries -- Nazi Germany and the USSR.

And the worse is that new generationn of estonians are growing up with a twisted concept of right and wrong.

Since I actually spend time among Estonian young people I can say that I notice no such trend. They are being raised with the simple message that it is important to defend ones country against foreign aggression.

Estonians who joined the Finnish army to keep the Soviets out of Finland are regarded as heroes in Estonia as they are in Finland.

Are there Estonians that think the SS is okay? Yes. Are there Russians that shave their heads and violently assault foreigners or caucasians in Moscow? You bet. Intolerance and racism are international problems that we should all work together to solve.

Ray D. Noper said...

cabrero,
"BTW, we constantly blame Stalinism, honour its victims, build memorials in their honour all over the country and by no way praise NKVD or Stalin. Twice in 50's and in 89 condemned stalinism and we keep doing that."
Yet you have president who is ex-KGB and who repeatedly celebrates the accomplishments of Dzerzhinsky, ChK, NKVD and KGB ?

The killing and deportations of civilians is acknowledged as war crime, in fact... Doesn't that make KGB a criminal organization, also the members of that organization automatically war criminals ? Why is that morally different from SS ?

But back to the first topic - documents. I pointed you to the original Nuremberg protocols, can you do it too ? Can you show me the (internationally acknowledged) document that talks about Estonian war criminals ?

Nothing is Free said...

Defense of one's homeland is an honorable thing. That's why every single Estonian male serves in the army. They are not draft-dodgers like the russkies.

Ray D. Noper said...

It's a wonder how smoothly some people here manage to not hear the information about Nazi-Soviet Pact... No answer about that, eh ? OK, explain Katyn, please ? The occupation of Baltic states even before Germany attacked SU ? You do understand, that the pact made Soviet Union an ally of Nazis ?

Nothing is Free said...

Dear "ray d. hoper",

Please do not slander the fine German nation. They signed the pact with the devil out of sheer necessity, to delay the inevitable Soviet attack.

Jens-Olaf said...

This discussion is almoust without any German opinion. So no opinion but a quote from a survey about the German occupation in Latvia. Uldis Neiburgs has the source in "Western Allies in Latvian Public Opinion and Nazi Propaganda":
'German security institutions surmised the pro-Western orientation of Kurelian officers. After the liquidation of the Kurelis detachment on the orders of the Supreme Commander of SS and Police in Ostland, SS Obergruppenführer Fridrich Jeckeln, a court martial trial was held in Liepaja prison on 19 November 1944, and eight staff officers were executed in the coastal dunes near Liepaja, while three accused received reduced sentences. The court verdict stated: " You maintained contacts with Anglo-Saxons and secretly prepared a revolt in order to bring back the year of 1919. On behalf of Führer Adolf Hitler we can assure you: it will never repeat. We shall exterminate you and your nation to the last man."

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

The "patriotic" Erna-game you have. What it was back in 1944? -
Pobre idiota cabrero,

The Erna game is dedicated to the participants of the Finnish Winter War, who came to Estonia prior to the withdrawal of Soviet Army and fought the murderers and rapists of the NKVD Defeat Batalion (Istrebitelskii bataljon), helping about 2000 civilians out of siege.

cabrero said...

2 Abu-Al-Valid

Yeah, pendejo,

That's what German Abver, was actually dedicated to: dispatching sabotage troops to help estonian peasants...

Ya, ya, mein furer, naturlih

Giustino said...

That's what German Abver, was actually dedicated to: dispatching sabotage troops to help estonian peasants...

We who live in the nordic countries don't want to get sucked into your massive life ending conflict with Germany, Cabrero.

Estonia is proud of its sons who teamed up with its Finnish brethren at a time of great catastrophe. It was not Finland nor Estonia that attacked first, it was the USSR.

People who attack countries, rape women, deport children, and assasinate political leaders deserve to die, cabrero, whether they wear the uniform of Germany, the USSR, or Walt Disney.

Trust me, if you had managed to fight Germany somewhere else, like in Antarctica, there would have been no Estonians there.

As it is, Finland, Sweden, Estonia, Denmark -- they are all 'stuck between a rock and a hard place.' If both of these large countries disappeared tomorrow, we would miss Octoberfest and your sexy Russian Eurovision entries, but there's always Austria and Poland to keep the party going.

cabrero said...

People who attack countries, rape women, deport children, and assasinate political leaders deserve to die, cabrero, whether they wear the uniform of Germany, the USSR, or Walt Disney.

- you are right about that.

But in the case we politely discuss with Agu it was no longer SU-Estonia issue. It was already a WWII issue. In that war there were only three sides: coalition, axis and neutral. No matter what motives you pick joining one of them, you share all responibility and merits with your part. If someone goes under german command he becomes a german serviceman and his actions should be judged equally as actions of any other german serviceman in any other part of the "war theatre".
Erna was no different then Otto Scarzeni's sabotage troops operating against allies.

Agu-Enrik Ubailves said...

Me cago en la leche de tus cabras!
Erna troop fighted the murderers of civilians. There is no law, coalition treaty or convention that would justify war crimes. Remember, that Russia has not apologized for these.
Dont waste your life in trying to justify ordinary and evident crimes.

Giustino said...

In that war there were only three sides: coalition, axis and neutral.

When the history books were written, I guess this was the most convenient way of coloring the maps.

In reality, Erna wore Finnish uniforms and were considered part of the Finnish army. They were loyal to Finland, which had been attacked in 1939 and lost a good piece of its territory to an aggressive USSR.

They also began training for their activities in the spring of 1941, at a time when the USSR had not yet joined the Allies.

Finally, the Erna raids are international competitions. Norway sent two teams this year. Why don't you have Lavrov ring up Jens Stoltenberg to tell him to stop his compatriots from participating.

Andres Sehr said...

Finally, the Erna raids are international competitions. Norway sent two teams this year. Why don't you have Lavrov ring up Jens Stoltenberg to tell him to stop his compatriots from participating.

Not only Norway but Czech, Germany, Sweden, ,Denmark, Portugal, Finland and the USA are all participating in the Erna raid this year. Odd how no one mentions that ever.

cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cabrero said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
cabrero said...

2 Agu,

claro, cagar es lo que puedes hacer mejor...

it's you dont waste yor life trying to whitewash evident and ordinary criminals...

However, who cares, they all got what they deserved... All that is left for you to do is to continue playing games and gravedigging...

Mait said...

I liked the Russian TV news claiming over and over that ERNA group was 'surrounded and destroyed'. I wonder who those ERNA veterans are, then?

Anyway, a tiny tip to the 'nothing is free' bot: estonian languague isn't indo-european, but oh wonder!, russian is;)

Giustino said...

Ok gentlemen. Much like the Estonian-Russian dialogue, this one is going nowhere or somewhere, but a 'where' with no destination.

It's been nice to exchange ideas, and I have enjoyed reading your posts, even you Rusak.

I would conclude with three points:

1. Estonia was founded in 1918

2. I also hate statlessness and believe more should be done to end it.

3. Estonia is part of the nordic economic and cultural space, and to some degrees, the nordic political space.

Nothing is Free said...

Anyway, a tiny tip to the 'nothing is free' bot: estonian languague isn't indo-european, but oh wonder!, russian is;)

Liar! Russkie babble is mongolized Polish. Hardly anything european left. Estonian is a Nordic language, you Nashist provocateur!

rusak said...

That's your opinion. One might consider a state that deports school children based on ethnicity to be a fascist state.

What state does that? It certainly didn’t happen in Russia. A few thousand illegal immigrants were deported to send a message to Georgia, but unfortunately the vast majority of them (illegal immigrants) were not deported.

The lexicon does need to be tweaked. In this article, they call themselves Narva Venelased.

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/administration/afp-news.html?id=070808145831.8lupnwbe&cat=null


This article obviously has an agenda from beginning to end. It doesn’t resemble anything objective, as it presents only one kind of viewpoint, with a particular purpose. It’s funny how this guy says “I don't like it when we speak about inhabitants of Estonia as Russians and Estonians.” So who’s this “we” and why are they absent from the article? As for the “more in common with” – he doesn’t actually explain how that is. I was born outside the RSFSR myself (not in the Baltics) and I consider it BS. As for that jackass talking about “only 10 broken windows” in Narva as if that shows that the ethnic Russians there are happy with the situation in Estonia – why the hell would these Russians want to destroy their own Russian town? This whole argument that since they haven’t started an armed insurrection everything must be OK is crap.

Boy, you really are dense aren't you. Estonia was founded in 1918. All of its political institutions evolved from the Estonian awakening and from the first period of independence.

Just because goose-stepping Red Army goons killed most of the Estonian political class and disbanded those institutions, doesn't mean that they died.

Instead they remained underground.


That’s not true. Those institutions were destroyed and the current situation is not a result of those original institutions but rather of the policy of the last 15 years. Lithuania was also a state in 1920 but Lithuania granted citizenship to everyone. I think that if the Russian minority in Estonia was as small as the one in Lithuania, they probably would have done so as well. So you can knock it off with this “they had to do it”, “it’s the original institutions” nonsense. I'm not suggesting that the should have given everyone citizenship, I'm just pointing out that they didn’t "have to" do anything -- they CHOSE to, it was all conscious choice.

Ask yourself, did they solve anything? Did conditions for persons of African descent get better in LA after 1992? Or did the gates in Orange County just get higher?

I don’t know if they “solved” anything. Los Angeles did get its first black chief of police right after the riots and another soon after that. White juries probably started thinking a little more about the consequences of their actions.

My position changes because I am a thinking individual, not some cardboard caricature of an evil Estonian nationalist. I mean I'm not even Estonian.

As I think over time new ideas come to mind, like the idea of a conflict over public space. That's my interpretation, as relevant as yours, perhaps more so because I live here and you don't.


Well, at least it’s good that you are open to new ideas. As for a “battle over public space” – what the hell kind of battle can it be when one side has all the political power in the country, enough to even go over the heads of the local administration to get their way, and the other side has practically nothing? Open your eyes already.

The Estonians started to care when they saw small children brought there with communist symbols on their clothing. No one has problems with old vets. I think that children were being brought into the mess made the choices a bit more stark.

“Care” about what exactly? You’re now saying it was a “battle over public space”.

Of course the opinion of Sweden doesn't matter. You get to decide who is who.

The Ests as a people historically are not “Westerners” any more than the black slaves.

Is Ireland part of the West, Comrade Rusak? The language (English) isn't theirs. The religion (Roman Catholicism) isn't theirs. They were slaves of English barons for many centuries. What right do they have to associate with the European Union and NATO? What right do the shanty Irish have to be considered Western?

Being part of various associations created in the West is not the same thing as being part of the West. Let me put it this way, Estonia is not a part of the West that matters.

So did Estonian victory over the Red Army in 1920.

So did Soviet annexation of Estonia.

All Georgians, all at the same time, some in Russia legally. As 'punishment' for Saakashvili not being your stooge.

All Georgians, all at the same time? Where do you get this stuff? Please, show me even one source that supports any of this BS. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t even say anything.

Giustino said...

That’s not true. Those institutions were destroyed and the current situation is not a result of those original institutions but rather of the policy of the last 15 years.

The Soviet Union succeeded in killing the Estonian state founded in 1918 as much as they succeeded in killing Christmas, Rusak.

They could outlaw it, punish people, prohibit displays of adherence to it, but somehow they weren't able to kill Christmas. Ditto with the Estonian state.

The Soviets also couldn't make the sun rise any earlier in Tallinn. They changed the clocks to Moscow time, but that damn sun kept coming up over Tallinn the same time as it came up over Helsinki.

As a sidenote, Christmas here is great by the way. There's nothing like getting loaded on glögi, the traditional Christmas drink of the nordic countries.

Nothing is Free said...

giustino,

Totally agree again. Totally. Estonians are fine Nordic people, totally unrelated to the mongrels across the pond. Estonia has Ingmarg Bergman, Legend of Calve, amongst other things. What is the cultural content of Russia? Cossack dancing? Drinking horse milk? Horseback archery? Puhlease! IMO, Hitler was totally right. Leningrad should have been turned into a lake and given to Estonians. Ruskieland has no culture.

Giustino said...

A few thousand illegal immigrants were deported to send a message to Georgia

You deport people to 'send messages' to countries? Why not have your foreign minister ring up his counterpart in Tblisi instead?

He could also send an e-mail. I hear that Saakashvili has managed to modernize his country quite a bit in these precious few years since his election.

why the hell would these Russians want to destroy their own Russian town? This whole argument that since they haven’t started an armed insurrection everything must be OK is crap.

They haven't left Estonia either, even though moving from Narva to Ivangorod, formerly known as Jaanilinn, would take about 15 minutes.

Those institutions were destroyed and the current situation is not a result of those original institutions but rather of the policy of the last 15 years.

We already addressed you allegience to Dzerzhinsky.

I'm just pointing out that they didn’t "have to" do anything -- they CHOSE to, it was all conscious choice.

Yes, it was a choice to require stateless persons to naturalize. As pointed out previously, Soviet citizens held their citizenship until Dec 25, 1991, when their state ceased to exist.

As for a “battle over public space” – what the hell kind of battle can it be when one side has all the political power in the country, enough to even go over the heads of the local administration to get their way, and the other side has practically nothing?

That's not true. Three-quarters of the support of the Center Party are ethnic Russian. The Center Party holds the second most amount of seats in the Riigikogu. Not only the Center Party, but Rahvaliit, and the Social Democrats also opposed moving the statue to a military cemetery.

But they lost and Ansip won. I have to say, the statue looks better where it is now than it did before. Maybe the former mayor of Tartu was right?

So did Soviet annexation of Estonia.

So did the Nazi 'annexation' of Austria and Denmark and Poland. I guess you are on the side of 'might makes right'.

Despicable.

Nothing is Free said...

They haven't left Estonia either, even though moving from Narva to Ivangorod, formerly known as Jaanilinn, would take about 15 minutes.

Actualy most of the Russkie North-West used to belong to Esstonians untill the ruskie mongoloids invaded. I believe it was known as Chuhonia at the time.

Giustino said...

We'll let's not delve too deep into the sad tale of the borderline extinct Ingrian Finns (nice work, Stalin!)

Speaking of which, I saw a lady with an Inkeri hat at the beach yesterday. My daughter befriended a young native-Russian-speaking girl, and they had a great time playing.

Believe it or not, the beaches in Eesti aren't segregated ;)

Nothing is Free said...

LOL. Sure, I've got black friends too, but I hate niggers.

Anyway Chuhon was the name of the Great Kraken that resided in the lake. Krakens were big in mythology at the time. Krakow derives from kraken, for example. Cthulhu is bastardized Chuhon. Anyway supposedly Kalev slayed Chuhon. Of course, once the ruskie horde overan the area, they appropriated the myth. Instead of Kalev and his polish gold front teeth that dazzled the kraken and allowed him to land the fatal blow, the russkie changed the hero to Ylya Muromen or something, who was a lazy bastard that inherited his father-in-laws magic clay stove... which was capable of locomotion (I kid you not!), and the stove pipe de-elevated and fired hot logs aka the Bulawas. And they changed the kraken to a multi-headed serpent. Of course the magic stove was useless. But Muromen spent so much lying on top of it in typical ruskie lazy stupor regardless of weather conditions, that he built up quite a B.O. As he jumped of the stove and ran from the serpent, he lost his left lapot (wooden shoe). Big mistake! for the serpent, who was overcome by the stench. In typical russkie fashion, can't win without massive casualties.. on your side. So according to the legend, half the village bought the farm at the same time. So of course the rouskies had to name a city after this mass-murdere. Murmansk.

OK, the history lesson is over for today. I'm gonna read some LaR. Apparently the russkies faked the polar landing. Typical.

Giustino said...

LOL. Sure, I've got black friends too, but I hate niggers.

A Chris Rock fan I see.

Nothing is Free said...

A Chris Rock fan I see.
Too racist. But Dane Cook is great!

rusak said...

The Soviet Union succeeded in killing the Estonian state founded in 1918 as much as they succeeded in killing Christmas, Rusak.

They could outlaw it, punish people, prohibit displays of adherence to it, but somehow they weren't able to kill Christmas. Ditto with the Estonian state.


Christmas wasn't outlawed in the Soviet Union, you clown. It was driven out of public life and replaced with New Year's Day, but it wasn't outlawed, and neither was the church itself. In fact, Easter remained a major national festivity, although with minimal reference to religion.

You deport people to 'send messages' to countries?

This is a country openly hostile toward Russia. And the people deported were illegal immigrants.

They haven't left Estonia either, even though moving from Narva to Ivangorod, formerly known as Jaanilinn, would take about 15 minutes.

Again, that's not a valid argument. Why should they just give up everything they've spent their whole lives building? Because the Ests want them to?

We already addressed you allegience to Dzerzhinsky.

What allegiance is that? Get it through your head already, one doesn't need to like anything about the Soviet Union in order to not like what's going on in Estonia now.

Yes, it was a choice to require stateless persons to naturalize. As pointed out previously, Soviet citizens held their citizenship until Dec 25, 1991, when their state ceased to exist.

Stop evading. I brought up the example with Lithuania, why don't you address that? Feel free to admit that I'm right.

That's not true. Three-quarters of the support of the Center Party are ethnic Russian. The Center Party holds the second most amount of seats in the Riigikogu. Not only the Center Party, but Rahvaliit, and the Social Democrats also opposed moving the statue to a military cemetery.

But they lost and Ansip won. I have to say, the statue looks better where it is now than it did before. Maybe the former mayor of Tartu was right?


You are such a hypocrit. Just a little while ago you were claiming that they sooooo "had to do it". Now you're bringing up the fact that the law to have the statue moved barely, just barely, passed -- and it wouldn't have passed if a couple of ethnic Russian traitors had done what their constituents elected them to do. Clearly, this wasn't any life or death issue for the Ests at all. Feel free to admit you were wrong.

So did the Nazi 'annexation' of Austria and Denmark and Poland. I guess you are on the side of 'might makes right'.

Despicable.


What's wrong with the Nazi annexation of Austria? The absolute majority there supported it. As for might makes right, that's what we're seeing in Estonia today: a rancorous Est majority trying to push around and "stick it" to a disenfranchised minority.

Giustino said...

In fact, Easter remained a major national festivity, although with minimal reference to religion.

Most accounts of 'Christmas' from my wife's family include the curtains being closed so as for the KGB goons (your president among them) couldn't see.

My wife's baptism was held in secret as well. Again, the metaphor for you, my dense friend, is that institutions -- like prewar fraternities that play a pivotol role in Estonian social life -- survived despite Soviet attempts to destroy them

You argued that they were destroyed. You are wrong.

This is a country openly hostile toward Russia. And the people deported were illegal immigrants.

Um, last time I checked Georgia wasn't dropping missiles on Russian territory. Their big mistake was parading around your spies on TV. That, I admit, was probably a bad thing to do.

Then the Russian baby responded with deportations, banning wines, cutting transit links, and -- oh look -- Georgia wants to integrate with the West more than ever. A lot of my friends and acquaintances
have visited Georgia over the past year. It's becoming "open" to normal people. Unlike your buds in Minsk.

Again, that's not a valid argument. Why should they just give up everything they've spent their whole lives building? Because the Ests want them to?

You argue that Estonia is an apartheid state. Then I provide you example after example of Russian-speakers saying its not, and you say that they don't count. Then I say that if Estonia was so bad, it might behoove some people to move back to Russia (considering they only moved from there in some cases 25 years ago) and again its not a valid argument.

What I understand is that unless it doesn't agree with what you are saying, it's not valid. And if Estonian Russians don't vote the way you want them to vote, then they stop being legitimate.

What allegiance is that? Get it through your head already, one doesn't need to like anything about the Soviet Union in order to not like what's going on in Estonia now.

The Soviet Union created Estonia's social problems. Countries that can control immigration can make sure that newcomers are integrated over time. Dumping 400,000 new people in a country over a period of 50 years creates some big problems.

The Soviet Union was able to 'neuter' the older generations of Estonian society through mass murder, rape, and deportation. But the generation that grew up under the Khrushchev thaw and Brezhnev stagnation could look openly around and see what a messed up situation was being made.

The equivalent, if I may use a metaphor again, is if someone flagged you down on the road, beat the hell out of you AND your car to the point that it barely started, and then yelled at you all the time for not being able to drive it home fast enough.

This person might suffer from temporary amnesia, and say that your driving only *really* started
the moment after he let you go, and that that vicious assault on your person and vehicle was "just history."

Stop evading. I brought up the example with Lithuania, why don't you address that? Feel free to admit that I'm right.

Lithuania is much larger than the pre-war Lithuania as well. Estonia could have done what Lithuania did but it didn't. Instead it did what Latvia did, perhaps because the immigration/linguistic problems there were more severe.


Believe it or not, these are all different countries, each sovereign, with its individual right to do what it pleases.

What I don't get is why the Russian Federation never granted all its successor citizens in Latvia citizenship. It could have ended their statelessness quite easily AND brought them back to replenish the stock of the population-imploding motherland. Instead, I have come to believe that the Russian Federation quiety supports statelessness in Latvia, because it provides a nice cover for any human rights accusations.

"Sure, lots of journalists gets killed in Russia, but Russians in Latvia have to take a humiliating language exam to get citizenship."

You are such a hypocrit. Just a little while ago you were claiming that they sooooo "had to do it".

They didn't have to do anything. As I said previously, I really don't care that much about "holy" Soviet war memorials. BUT, it was ugly, AND it did have 13 corpses buried under a sidewalk.

The square looks much better now.

Now you're bringing up the fact that the law to have the statue moved barely, just barely, passed -- and it wouldn't have passed if a couple of ethnic Russian traitors had done what their constituents elected them to do.

I love how any ethnic Russian who disagrees with you is now a "race traitor." Got to love that Russian racism. You can join up with Dmitri Linter who is so afraid of "Estonianization" -- a fear as legitimate as English-speaking Quebec-residents worrying about being Gallicized.

Clearly, this wasn't any life or death issue for the Ests at all. Feel free to admit you were wrong.

It's really sad that you don't live in a democracy, Rusak. Then you would understand how things work. Things are put to a vote, and he (or she) with the most votes makes the decisions.

I didn't agree with my country's decision to invade Iraq. But I can't deny that the public supported it. And I can't say Congress didn't give him the power to do it. So I was sold out by my representatives. But they get to do what they want to do after I elect them. That's the downside of democracy. Perhaps why your country always prefers a tsar to a vote.

As for might makes right, that's what we're seeing in Estonia today: a rancorous Est majority trying to push around and "stick it" to a disenfranchised minority.

That's not true. If it was there would be

a) no Russian version of Postimees
http://rus.postimees.ee/

b) no Russian version of Eesti Päevaleht
http://www.epl.ee/?lk_id=257

c) no Russian version of Eesti Televisoon
http://www.novosti.etv24.ee

c) no position of Population Affairs Minister
http://www.rahvastikuminister.ee/

d) no president who visits the most Russian-speaking county in Estonia as his first internal visit as president.

http://www.president.ee/en/duties/press_releases.php?gid=84352&mida=narva


“You should also not be ashamed that your home language is not the Estonian language, just as I was not ashamed in front of my friends that my home tongue was Estonian when I was living in Sweden, USA or Germany."

President Ilves, whose grandmother Aleksandra had come to Estonia after the Bolshevik coup d’etat, said, “her family and she personally knew very well what it means to live as a representative of another nationality among the indigenous population.”

“In the same way I also understand those people and their descendents who in the second half of the 20th century came from different parts of the Soviet Union and settled in Estonia,” the Head of State said.

“I do not want you and your parents to feel as strangers in Estonia,” President Ilves said while speaking at the Narva Humanitarian Gymnasium.

“Living in Estonia you are our fellow countrymen. Namely our countrymen, not countrymen of the Russian government. That means that your problems are not the problems of the Russian government or the President of Russia, your problems are our problems.

We cannot do without you. Estonia is too small a country to allow itself to be indifferent towards its fellow countrymen.”

He called on the students to be politically active, to join interest groups and political parties, to run as candidates in the elections and to vote.

“It is worth to remember that no political party can represent the interests of all Estonians as people are different, neither can any political party take the role of a spokesman of all non-Estonians,” President Ilves said.